Bigger HST machines.

[RickB]

Agreed. But I am not arguing just pointing out it can be done. I personally prefer geared tractors.

I don't see where anyone claimed it couldn't be done. IH built hydro drive tractors over 100 engine hp for 2 or 3 decades. They were great for a small specific group of jobs. If they were practical and economical to fill the market's broader needs somebody would be building them today.

 

[LD1]

An IVT or CVT transmission will work much like the hydo's the AGCO ones seem to be more intuitive to operate.
Also a power shift with a left hand reverser will out perform a hydro.
There are a few larger Ag hydros the IH's have been off the market for many years the older 86 and 26 series.
However the New Holland and Versatile bi-directional tractors were hydos and they are newer then the IH's.

May may work "much like" the HST....but they are not. Anything but a hst would be a step backwards for what I do.

HST has more losses, can’t run at a truly consistent speed (for spraying, seeding, etc), overheats with constant PTO field use (due to the inherent inefficiency….energy is given off as heat). What use case do you have for a HST for field work?

I don't need a consistent speed. 95% of what I do is mowing. And the overheating should be a non issue. Dozers, big combines, skid loader all have HST. So I find it unlikely that keeping an engine cool is even a factor.

A geared MX5100 wouldn't give you the feeling of needing more HP that the HST MX5100 gives you.

Don't matter what trans or how much power.....there is always gonna be a time where it "feels" like you need more power. A gear tractor don't have that much more pto power to likely even notice.

Rather the gear tractor is probably gonna be selected in a gear that is slower than I want.....but the next step up is too fast.....and I'd be cursing the limited speed selections. So going slower than "ideal"....sure it may seem like ample power

Combines don't earn their keep by applying horsepower to tractive effort. A better argument would involve high hp hydrostatic drive dozers. But they spend 50% of their time backing up and accomplishing very little. Hydrostatic transmissions lack the efficiency the market demands in applications where high duty cycles and high drawbar loads exist. So nobody builds them.

Alot op people that are in the 50-75hp market aren't earning their keep with tractive force either.

Rather they are like me....wanting something to mow. Or a dozen other tasks that don't require high traction most of the time.

 

[RickB]

I guess you're doomed to disappointment.
Or you're gonna have to open your eyes to something unfamiliar.
Kinda like the crowd that would never have a truck with an automatic.

 

[K5lwq]

I don't see where anyone claimed it couldn't be done. IH built hydro drive tractors over 100 engine hp for 2 or 3 decades. They were great for a small specific group of jobs. If they were practical and economical to fill the market's broader needs somebody would be building them today.

Maybe I misunderstood post #2. Carry on.

 

[ptsg]

Don't matter what trans or how much power.....there is always gonna be a time where it "feels" like you need more power. A gear tractor don't have that much more pto power to likely even notice.

Rather the gear tractor is probably gonna be selected in a gear that is slower than I want.....but the next step up is too fast.....and I'd be cursing the limited speed selections. So going slower than "ideal"....sure it may seem like ample power

But you don't have a inefficient hydrostatic transmission stealing all of the HP that otherwise would be available at the PTO. While a geared tractor won't need much HP to get it going.

Slower gear? Nope, you go with the higher gear and it would go just fine, because you do have more power available that is not just being just wasted.

 

[RickB]

Maybe I misunderstood post #2. Carry on.

I'm not seeing post #2. Looks like it may have been deleted?

 

[Jchonline]

If All you are talking about is mowing...I suppose. Cruise control on HST kinda sucks when you are turning to make another pass...have you tried it? There might be a HST machine or 2 out there that will slow in a turn, but you don't really have control of that speed. I still politely disagree and would choose geared shuttle anyday. That said we all have our own opinions!

 

[Richard]

I mow probably 300-400 acres a year with an 8' cutter.

Where I live, (wife's family farm, about 250 acres, maybe 50/50 woods/fields?)

I used to cut the place with their IH 444 and 5' rotary as her father & uncle were getting older and unable. Finally, I decided one summer that living life was more interesting than spending nearly the entire summer cutting "their" land (which my wife now owns part of so I wasn't blind to that progression) AND, I paid for the fuel to cut their land.

(I'm such a dang good son-in-law)

I finally stopped cutting and miracles of miracles, a year later, an International 980 shows up with a 10' HD Rhino mower! So now I can get moving.

Father in law passed and his son sold the IH and Rhino (never asking if I might want to buy it from the Estate)

So given that I live here and now we have NOTHING to cut the place with and not wanting to rely on any tempermental family members, I bought my own IH-1066 and a 15' flexwing.

Now, if I bust my hiney, I can cut the entire place in a single day OR, I can be more casual about it (I enjoy cutting the fields) and do it over a couple days.

I've got to agree....can't believe that you're not using a larger mower. I've been considering getting a 20' flexwing.

 

[LD1]

But you don't have a inefficient hydrostatic transmission stealing all of the HP that otherwise would be available at the PTO. While a geared tractor won't need much HP to get it going.

Slower gear? Nope, you go with the higher gear and it would go just fine, because you do have more power available that is not just being just wasted.

What I have is the most efficient mowing machine I can find to pull a 8' twin.

Very very seldom do I have to slow down due to lack of power. Rather it's because of rough terrain, mowing around/close to things, etc. The gear version of my tractor has:
5th....4.7mph
6th...6.7 mph
7th...10.9mph

My medium range is 0-7.3.

7.3 mph is about as fast as one can go without sacrificing cut quality and outrunning the mower. 6.5-7 is about perfect. So the gear machine in 6th would work well. Except if I hit a thick patch, rough area, etc....4.7 is a big drop.

Not sure why you are trying so hard to convince me that HST is so terrible. I have mowed thousands of acres with a shuttle and thousands with a HST. HST wins hands down. The gear machine would do nothing but slow me down and wear me out shifting constantly

 

[LD1]

If All you are talking about is mowing...I suppose. Cruise control on HST kinda sucks when you are turning to make another pass...have you tried it? There might be a HST machine or 2 out there that will slow in a turn, but you don't really have control of that speed. I still politely disagree and would choose geared shuttle anyday. That said we all have our own opinions!

No I don't use cruise.

If you have mowed thousands of acres with both.....of all sorts of varying terrain, vegetation, and obstacles....I bet you wouldn't be too keen on a shuttle.

Wide open 30 acres of smooth field with a 15' batwing and only mowing it a couple times a year....sure....a shuttle would suffice. But hundreds of acres a year comprised of 1-40 acre jobs, varying vegetation, rough horse pastures, hundreds of trees to mow around, etc.....there is nothing even close to a HST is ease of speed and direction changing

 

[4570Man]

What I have is the most efficient mowing machine I can find to pull a 8' twin.

Very very seldom do I have to slow down due to lack of power. Rather it's because of rough terrain, mowing around/close to things, etc. The gear version of my tractor has:
5th....4.7mph
6th...6.7 mph
7th...10.9mph

My medium range is 0-7.3.

7.3 mph is about as fast as one can go without sacrificing cut quality and outrunning the mower. 6.5-7 is about perfect. So the gear machine in 6th would work well. Except if I hit a thick patch, rough area, etc....4.7 is a big drop.

Not sure why you are trying so hard to convince me that HST is so terrible. I have mowed thousands of acres with a shuttle and thousands with a HST. HST wins hands down. The gear machine would do nothing but slow me down and wear me out shifting constantly

I agree 100 percent that a gear tractor with few gears suck and pretty much all small tractors should be a HST. I also disagree that a gear tractor would outperform your HST mowing. A HST tractor doesn’t loose much energy under low loads and pulling the bushhog around isn’t very demanding on the transmission. But I think you’d be satisfied with a shuttle shift transmission with 12 or more gears.

 

[LD1]

Where I live, (wife's family farm, about 250 acres, maybe 50/50 woods/fields?)

I used to cut the place with their IH 444 and 5' rotary as her father & uncle were getting older and unable. Finally, I decided one summer that living life was more interesting than spending nearly the entire summer cutting "their" land (which my wife now owns part of so I wasn't blind to that progression) AND, I paid for the fuel to cut their land.

(I'm such a dang good son-in-law)

I finally stopped cutting and miracles of miracles, a year later, an International 980 shows up with a 10' HD Rhino mower! So now I can get moving.

Father in law passed and his son sold the IH and Rhino (never asking if I might want to buy it from the Estate)

So given that I live here and now we have NOTHING to cut the place with and not wanting to rely on any tempermental family members, I bought my own IH-1066 and a 15' flexwing.

Now, if I bust my hiney, I can cut the entire place in a single day OR, I can be more casual about it (I enjoy cutting the fields) and do it over a couple days.

I've got to agree....can't believe that you're not using a larger mower. I've been considering getting a 20' flexwing.

The reason I don't get a larger mower is because 90% of my jobs are 5 acres of less. This is a part of my business. I mow overgrown lawns that someone's mower broke and now it's too much for a riding mower....or 5 acre tracts of land that were farm fields a year or two prior and now needs the weeds knocked down to survey/stake the property for building/septic approval. Or vacant city lots that have to be kept under 15" where it's cheaper to bushhog 3-4 times a year as opposed to weekly mowing....or horse pastures Throw in an occasional 20+ acre job. Or a huge solar farm where the rows between panels won't allow more than an 8' mower, etc

Make no mistake....if I owned 300-400 acres I wanted mowed regularly, I'd own a 100+HP machine and batwing.

The 8' twin spindle 3ph cutter is also the sweet spot for trailering. A 10' rigid deck would be too wide without unhooking and putting sideways on a trailer.

The machine is as perfect as they make for what I do. The ONLY thing I would change would be larger tires. Specifically the fronts. You can go faster if the field is less than perfectly smooth and still keep butt in seat. And time is money when it's a business.

 

[LD1]

I agree 100 percent that a gear tractor with few gears suck and pretty much all small tractors should be a HST. I also disagree that a gear tractor would outperform your HST mowing. A HST tractor doesn’t loose much energy under low loads and pulling the bushhog around isn’t very demanding on the transmission. But I think you’d be satisfied with a shuttle shift transmission with 12 or more gears.

I'd probably be satisfied as far as gear selection and having the "ability" to get to an optimal rpm.

However I would not be satisfied from an operating standpoint and having to do anything other than a slight movement of my right toe for speed and direction change.

Having gone from a shuttle to a HST is like going from a craftsman rider to a commercial ZTR

 

[LD1]

Maybe I am an oddball and the only one In The world that would actually buy a 5000-series....or M-sized Kubota with a HST?

I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea of trying to plow or plant ground with a 70hp HST is better.

But I imagine there was once a time not long ago that some of you same folks thought there would never be a market for a HST 4000-series Deere or MX/Large grandL either.

But as farms keep getting bigger....and farmers are considering 100hp and smaller tractors their "utility" tractors and not their "real" tractors anymore....I can see the merits of having 80-90hp HST machines. Because those tractors and what farmers around here use for just general purpose stuff. Loading and unloading round bails or seed boxes, pulling seed hoppers, plowing snow and grading their driveways, shoving dead trees back up in fence lines, mowing waterways, towing a header cart, etc etc. All things that a HST would excel at and not be the "inefficient power robbing" machine that some claim

 

[MechanicalGuy]

We'll see bigger hst machines every year for awhile. Hst is getting bigger because the demand is very much there. The mx machines were snatched up around my area if they were hst. Geared leftover were all that was on the lots when I was shopping. The Kubota m62 tlb is the biggest hst machine kubota makes. It will not be the biggest in a few years.

 

[jjp8182]

Maybe I am an oddball and the only one In The world that would actually buy a 5000-series....or M-sized Kubota with a HST?

I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea of trying to plow or plant ground with a 70hp HST is better.

But I imagine there was once a time not long ago that some of you same folks thought there would never be a market for a HST 4000-series Deere or MX/Large grandL either.

But as farms keep getting bigger....and farmers are considering 100hp and smaller tractors their "utility" tractors and not their "real" tractors anymore....I can see the merits of having 80-90hp HST machines. Because those tractors and what farmers around here use for just general purpose stuff. Loading and unloading round bails or seed boxes, pulling seed hoppers, plowing snow and grading their driveways, shoving dead trees back up in fence lines, mowing waterways, towing a header cart, etc etc. All things that a HST would excel at and not be the "inefficient power robbing" machine that some claim

I'm probably a similar sort of oddball then, because an HST in the 70 to 100HP range does make sense to me for certain types of tasks (especially if the manufacturer have enough sense to leverage a higher flow to the remote valves).

While an HST may not be optimal for draft work there are a lot of other tasks where having the 3PT, PTO, and loader on a larger frame tractor makes a lot of sense. Granted on some farms a lot of those tasks are currently being performed by skidsteers, telehandlers or other hydrostatic machines (potentially in the same weight range as 70-140HP tractors).

Really what would be ideal is a tractor in that HP range with a fully mechanical drive train to the PTO, but hydraulic drive to the wheels. Something that's less a tractor for pulling things and more a "PTO on wheels"

 

[Williy]

Hst Tractors loose power? this is a myth maybe
many years ago it was so but with all the improvements not so today. This tractor
Yanmar has this 59 hp tractor with a new type of
transmission almost like two transmissions in one YT3 Series | YANMAR Tractor

willy

 

[4570Man]

Maybe I am an oddball and the only one In The world that would actually buy a 5000-series....or M-sized Kubota with a HST?

I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea of trying to plow or plant ground with a 70hp HST is better.

But I imagine there was once a time not long ago that some of you same folks thought there would never be a market for a HST 4000-series Deere or MX/Large grandL either.

But as farms keep getting bigger....and farmers are considering 100hp and smaller tractors their "utility" tractors and not their "real" tractors anymore....I can see the merits of having 80-90hp HST machines. Because those tractors and what farmers around here use for just general purpose stuff. Loading and unloading round bails or seed boxes, pulling seed hoppers, plowing snow and grading their driveways, shoving dead trees back up in fence lines, mowing waterways, towing a header cart, etc etc. All things that a HST would excel at and not be the "inefficient power robbing" machine that some claim

HST machines aren’t that inefficient anyway. Maybe they’d rob 20 percent trying to pull a plow across a field but just driving around doing chores they aren’t costing much power. My Deere backhoe had a shuttle trans ( really an automatic transmission that didn’t shift itself) it worked well and changing between forward and reverse was effortless. What it didn’t have that’s important for mowing was the ability to keep the rpms up and control the speed.

 

[4570Man]

But you don't have a inefficient hydrostatic transmission stealing all of the HP that otherwise would be available at the PTO. While a geared tractor won't need much HP to get it going.

Slower gear? Nope, you go with the higher gear and it would go just fine, because you do have more power available that is not just being just wasted.

How much power to you think a HST trans is robbing to drive a tractor across the ground? A bare bones gear tractor with a dry clutch and only 4 gears with a hi/low would have no chance at beating his HST at the job he’s doing.

 

[Agvg]

Buy a small Fent Tractor, steppless transmission form a couple hundred meters a hour to 60km/h.

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