Surprised by need for rear ballast with L 4060 in this situation

[sea2summit]

You’re right I didn’t do the math in the pencil demonstration right. But the concept is still right. You should really move the back pencil back 6” so the distance is 6” 18” between centers and 12” on the front and repeat the pencil and board test. measuring the distance between the tractor axels like 2 posters have done is still wrong. You need to measure the distance from the load center on the FEL to the rear axel and from the rear axle to the ballast load center to determine the ratio.

So, if we make the pencils weigh one pound each to simulate loaded tires and put a one pound weight on one end to simulate a FEL load what are the axle weights if we put them on the worlds smallest truck scale?

 

[ctgoldwing]

The amount of weight relieved from the front axle has nothing to do with what is in the front loader. Take the damn loader off. Putting ballast on the rear as per my example relieves a proportional amount of weight from the front axle. The amount depends on how far the two axles are apart, how far behind the centerline of the ballast is from the rear axle centerline and the actual weight of the ballast. It has nothing to do with the loader.
What the loader adds is weight to the front axle. The ballast relieves some/all/whatever of that weight on the front axle whether the loader is filled, empty or not there.

 

[4570Man]

The amount of weight relieved from the front axle has nothing to do with what is in the front loader. Take the damn loader off. Putting ballast on the rear as per my example relieves a proportional amount of weight from the front axle. The amount depends on how far the two axles are apart, how far behind the centerline of the ballast is from the rear axle centerline and the actual weight of the ballast. It has nothing to do with the loader.
What the loader adds is weight to the front axle. The ballast relieves some/all/whatever of that weight on the front axle whether the loader is filled, empty or not there.

It has everything to do with the loader. The tractor and the loader are one piece. They don’t flex in the middle. If you don’t understand the proper way to measure the tractor to determine the ratio than you can’t be helped. And yea taking the loader off would be by far the best way to relieve stress from the front axel but without the loader the whole discussion is pointless. The loader plus the plywood in dissuasion puts the load center a good 6’ out in front of the front axel. Using someone else’s measurements of 31 inches from the 3ph to the axel and 84 inches in between the wheels the loader would increase the distance to 156 inches and change the ratio from 3-1 to 5-1. The best thing you could do to decrease the ratio would be to stick something farther off the back like a bush hog or backhoe. Unfortunately those are clumsy to work with and most people like to use tighter fitting ballast.

 

[4570Man]

So, if we make the pencils weigh one pound each to simulate loaded tires and put a one pound weight on one end to simulate a FEL load what are the axle weights if we put them on the worlds smallest truck scale?

Loaded tires do absolutely nothing to unload the front axel. They actually put more load on the front axel when the tractor is tipped forward. You could fill the rear tires with lead shot and then mount lead weights on the outside and still not take one pound off the front axel. You’d probably still be saving it by making the rear tires do all the work which is a much stronger driveline but you won’t be taking weight off. Aside from the obvious of not flipping increased traction is the whole point of adding ballast.

 

[sea2summit]

Loaded tires do absolutely nothing to unload the front axel. They actually put more load on the front axel when the tractor is tipped forward. You could fill the rear tires with lead shot and then mount lead weights on the outside and still not take one pound off the front axel. You’d probably still be saving it by making the rear tires do all the work which is a much stronger driveline but you won’t be taking weight off. Aside from the obvious of not flipping increased traction is the whole point of adding ballast.

So on a scale what would it weigh at each axle?

 

[zoltanthegypsy]

It has everything to do with the loader. The tractor and the loader are one piece. They don’t flex in the middle. If you don’t understand the proper way to measure the tractor to determine the ratio than you can’t be helped. And yea taking the loader off would be by far the best way to relieve stress from the front axel but without the loader the whole discussion is pointless. The loader plus the plywood in dissuasion puts the load center a good 6’ out in front of the front axel. Using someone else’s measurements of 31 inches from the 3ph to the axel and 84 inches in between the wheels the loader would increase the distance to 156 inches and change the ratio from 3-1 to 5-1. The best thing you could do to decrease the ratio would be to stick something farther off the back like a bush hog or backhoe. Unfortunately those are clumsy to work with and most people like to use tighter fitting ballast.

Respectfully, no - unless we're talking about two (or more...) different things here. Ratio of affect on front axle load by load in the loader and load on the TPH is affected by actual weights as well as distances from and between axles.

As ctogoldwing has said, the actual relief of load on the front axle is determined by distance between the axles, the distance of the TPH weight behind the rear axle, and the TPH weight. It can be calculated independent of the presence of a loader and its load. In my working life we called that "superposition".

I'm going to butt out of this conversation now, but do have one last question re the loaded pencils and tiny truck scale: those ag pencils or turf pencils?

Z.

 

[4570Man]

So on a scale what would it weigh at each axle?

We’ll I’m assuming you’re not loading the front tires. Assuming the tractor is parked and you’re not using the loader you could ballast the rear tires with super dense star dust and make them weigh a million pounds each and it wouldn’t change the front axel. You’d probably also do a good job at saving the front axel since it would be too heavy to move so you couldn’t wear it out lol.

 

[4570Man]

Respectfully, no - unless we're talking about two (or more...) different things here. Ratio of affect on front axle load by load in the loader and load on the TPH is affected by actual weights as well as distances from and between axles.

As ctogoldwing has said, the actual relief of load on the front axle is determined by distance between the axles, the distance of the TPH weight behind the rear axle, and the TPH weight. It can be calculated independent of the presence of a loader and its load. In my working life we called that "superposition".

I'm going to butt out of this conversation now, but do have one last question re the loaded pencils and tiny truck scale: those ag pencils or turf pencils?

Z.

That would only be right if the loader wasn’t installed. But nobody cares about the front axel weight without a loader. Regardless of actual weight or distance putting a loader on and putting a load in front of the loader increases the length by a lot and increased length makes for a larger ratio and a larger ratio means every pound you put on the back lifts the front by a smaller percentage.

 

[zoltanthegypsy]

That would only be right if the loader wasn’t installed. But nobody cares about the front axel weight without a loader. Regardless of actual weight or distance putting a loader on and putting a load in front of the loader increases the length by a lot and increased length makes for a larger ratio and a larger ratio means every pound you put on the back lifts the front by a smaller percentage.

Sure, but that "wrong math" post wasn't talking about percentage. It was calculating how many pounds of relief of front axle load was provided by a given weight added to the TPH. How many pounds (absolute pounds, not percentage) relieved on the front axle is dependent on distance between the axles, the distance behind the rear axle of the TPH weight, and the weight itself.

now, I'm done...

Z.

 

[sea2summit]

We’ll I’m assuming you’re not loading the front tires. Assuming the tractor is parked and you’re not using the loader you could ballast the rear tires with super dense star dust and make them weigh a million pounds each and it wouldn’t change the front axel. You’d probably also do a good job at saving the front axel since it would be too heavy to move so you couldn’t wear it out lol.

We’re using your example. A three foot board, a pencil at 1’ and 2’ I’m just saying eh pencils weigh a pound. So out a pound on one end of the board. What are the weights on each pencil if you put them on a scale?