Automatic whole house generator systems.

[grsthegreat]

first off, i must say i used to install Generac units, and i still do service on them. The new series generac units are far and away superior to units 10 years or older…many major upgrades. I now solely offer generac air cooled service and i no longer install. That said, units serviced at least every other year have very excellent track record for those i work on. Very few issues.

this statement covers emergency backup air cooled units. For people needing alot of continuous generator work, go liquid cooled 1800 rpm or diesel. Stay away from air cooled. The main problem with liquid cooled units is good luck finding service on any brands. Parts and labor skyrocket over air cooled service rates. Servicemen are few and far between. As an example i had a customer with a catipiller diesel unit on a golf course water system. The circuit board on transfer switch fried due to a loose mounting bolt. NO ONE but cat sells the board. Cost of board plus cat install (they wont sell board) $3,500.00

people always talk about the problems owners of generac units report…they sell millions of them. Only a small percentage have issues.

and its usually lack of service causing problems. I just serviced a 2007 generator, that hasnt had service, even checking oil, since 2016. Its amazing.

 

[Fxfymn413]

New generator units dont have that butterfly valve any longer.

How do they regulate the fuel flow now?

 

[ray66v]

My 5.5k portable runs my whole house, including a window a/c, if I shut down the central air.

I keep wondering, if rather than buy like an 18K standby generator, wouldn't it be considerably less expensive to buy say an 8k, and just have it run everything except the central air, and, or other very high current appliances if that was applicable?

Or, does the cost of the additional wiring necessary to do that eat up most of the savings?

 

[grsthegreat]

No, you can get a smaller generator and instead of installing a whole house switch, install the smaller 16 circuit switch. Place transfer switch next to house panel and move circuits that you want powered. Not everyone wants entire house backed up.

 

[grsthegreat]

How do they regulate the fuel flow now?

Its a similar item called a mixer assembly. Sits to the side of the motor. Has stepper motor attached to it. Cant see the inner workings, but they dont fall apart like some older units, that sat on top of the motor.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

My 5.5k portable runs my whole house, including a window a/c, if I shut down the central air.

I keep wondering, if rather than buy like an 18K standby generator, wouldn't it be considerably less expensive to buy say an 8k, and just have it run everything except the central air, and, or other very high current appliances if that was applicable?

Or, does the cost of the additional wiring necessary to do that eat up most of the savings?

Everybody's generator needs are different. A generator needs to maintain basic living services of heat/cooling, sanitation, water, and lighting. Your 5.5k unit would run most well pumps, but if someone also has a pumped septic system, will it run both the well and septic pump at the same time? It obviously would not run a well pump and 4600w water heater at the same time.

In the SE where they get whacked with 90% humidity and days without power, lack of AC can be life threatening. In the West, if you have alternative (wood/NG) heat, you only need a generator and fuel maybe 4 hours a day, and that's only a convenience. 19th century tech kept houses livable with no electricity at all.

My personal opinion is that generator buyers are like pickup buyers. Some people need a heavy duty rig that's going to carry a load, others get by fine with a Honda Civic. Everybody needs to evaluate their physical plant. I know a dairy farmer with a 200kw 3-phase generator, and he still has to load manage and keep a 5000 gallon diesel tank mostly full. He even has a backup backup generator. He's milking over 1000 cows, and can't afford to go down.

 

[ericm979]

Generac makes load shed devices that don't need the extra low voltage wiring back to the generator. And they work with any generator not just Generacs. You can set the preference order for the loads. They work by sensing the drop from 60hz that indicates the generator is struggling.

Generac 50 Amp Smart Management Module Load Control

Helps Optimize Generator Performance—Control loads to 50A independently of ATS with 1-8 Load Priority or Lock Out Mode. Status LED + Test Button

www.norwall.com

There's also a cool open source monitor that runs on cheap generic HW:

Monitoring 27kw Generac Generator with Raspberry Pi and Multimode Fiber

A while ago I got a Generac RG027 Liquid Cooled Generator. It runs on a 2.4l Mitsubishi engine running at 1800RPM. The Generac Monitoring sucks, so I installed Genmon. An open source generator monitoring solution on a Raspberry Pi 4 GitHub - jgyates/genmon: Generac Generator Monitoring using a

blog.networkprofile.org

GitHub - jgyates/genmon: Generac (and other models) Generator Monitoring using a Raspberry Pi and WiFi

Generac (and other models) Generator Monitoring using a Raspberry Pi and WiFi - jgyates/genmon

github.com

 

[jaydee325]

The price difference on the Generac website for a Guardian 14kW unit and a 24kW unit is $1600. That differential will probably be eaten up by the requirement to install a sub panel with select circuits to be run or by the smart load management system using a 14kW unit vice running everything with the 24kW (example).

Also, here is an example of convenience. Just before last Christmas, my wife called me and said the power went out and the generator was running. She said she was baking Christmas goodies and drying clothes in the drier and asked me what should she do. I said to just restart the oven and the drier and enjoy her cooking passion!!

 

[mudking]

Generac is fine. That your Generac Dealer is 3.5 miles away would be a major consideration for me. We had an ice storm coming a month ago, so I went and checked the generator and there was an error light flashing. My very-close-by service guy was there in a half hour. i have resolved to check it monthly now.

I put in a 20kw Kohler whole house LP (already had a 500 gallon tank in the ground and line run to very close to the install spot) 5 years ago and it's been fine too. 2000 sq ft house, electric cook top, electric washer and dryer, conventional 4 ton AC but LP furnace and LP water heat. It also runs a 950 sq ft detached "garage" that's a fully finished living space with with a 2 ton heat pump and electric water heat.

i went with an LP powered Kohler because the Kohler dealer is 5 miles away and the Generac dealer was 60 miles away. Generac quoted mine for 22kw and was probably 20% higher (maybe partially because of the distance).

My all-in was for the Kohler, switchgear and install was just under $8200 in 2017.

 

[BeezFun]

We had a 22kW generac natural gas installed about 7 years ago. That model had just come out and they had a promotion on it that made it cheaper than the 16kW model, so it was an easy choice. It had quite a few problems at first but the dealer was great and worked with Generac to get it straightened out. They said it was because that model had just been released and there were some changes they had to make in the field. So I'd say have it installed by a dealer with experience and a good reputation, ours has a large staff and offers 7x24 support coverage, so if it goes out in the middle of the night they'll come fix it. Parts are very expensive, so I bought the extended warranty coverage which included the cost of the annual service. Since the initial problems it's had only one problem, the system board failed which was replaced under the extended warranty and was $700, so I'm glad I got the coverage. When we first bought the generator our electricity was like a third world country and went off about once a week, so the generator paid for itself that first few years. The electric utility made some upgrades to the service lines in this area and problems are much less frequent, but we just had an 8 hour outage during some high winds and tornadoes in the area. One of our requirements was that it be able to run our central air because my wife had her business in the house and cancelling clients cost us a lot of money, so it was worth it for us to just have the whole house on the transfer switch.

If you use natural gas, make sure you check with the gas company first. In our case both our meter and service line had to be upgraded to be large enough to supply the extra flow demand of the generator. We lucked out because our house was over 30 years old so the gas company did all the work for no charge because we were in the queue to have the upgrade at some point, which included replacing our 300' long service line to the house. That might be the only time in my life I got something for nothing.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I've not heard bad about generac. I mostly fool with big farm generators like 125000 watts. But I'm around electricians that install generacs on houses. They surprisingly know very little about how they work. Can't find the problem when things aren't working right. I fixed the last one with an 800 dollar part. That sounds high but the man was ready to buy another lightly used one for 30,000 dollars. I guess that's why he keeps me around. Them young electricians have my number and call me when they have a problem. They don't know much about the generators except they work or don't work.

 

[grsthegreat]

The price difference on the Generac website for a Guardian 14kW unit and a 24kW unit is $1600. That differential will probably be eaten up by the requirement to install a sub panel with select circuits to be run or by the smart load management system using a 14kW unit vice running everything with the 24kW (example).

Also, here is an example of convenience. Just before last Christmas, my wife called me and said the power went out and the generator was running. She said she was baking Christmas goodies and drying clothes in the drier and asked me what should she do. I said to just restart the oven and the drier and enjoy her cooking passion!!

actually, hooking up the 16 ckt switch is even easier in some cases than the whole house, as yo dont need to kill utility power or move service feeders. also, 14 kw will be hydraulic valves and use maybe 25% less gas flow.. or there abouts.

 

[ray66v]

Everybody's generator needs are different. A generator needs to maintain basic living services of heat/cooling, sanitation, water, and lighting. Your 5.5k unit would run most well pumps, but if someone also has a pumped septic system, will it run both the well and septic pump at the same time? It obviously would not run a well pump and 4600w water heater at the same time.

In the SE where they get whacked with 90% humidity and days without power, lack of AC can be life threatening. In the West, if you have alternative (wood/NG) heat, you only need a generator and fuel maybe 4 hours a day, and that's only a convenience. 19th century tech kept houses livable with no electricity at all.

My personal opinion is that generator buyers are like pickup buyers. Some people need a heavy duty rig that's going to carry a load, others get by fine with a Honda Civic. Everybody needs to evaluate their physical plant. I know a dairy farmer with a 200kw 3-phase generator, and he still has to load manage and keep a 5000 gallon diesel tank mostly full. He even has a backup backup generator. He's milking over 1000 cows, and can't afford to go down.

Not sure how I lost you, But, I was not asking about anyone else's needs.

For the record: No, I don't have a well pump.

Yes, my 5500 watt generator runs my septic system, my sump pumps, and all my other general needs.

During a power outage, the least of your concerns should be powering a septic system that would otherwise have to fend for it's self anyway, if the power was out. The way my system is built, the discharge sump probably holds 500 gallons, and then has a gravity overflow if things got really bad. So, if I need the power to run a window A/C, because it was oppressively hot, the load from the septic system, is easy to shed.

As I said though, my generator runs my whole house to suit me. Sorry, that it seems most generators can't perform at that level. But, mine does. And, it has done the job for days at a time when I needed it too. So, I don't wish to debate that.

I believe these standby units are often oversized, to meet unrealistic demand calculations, and high sales commissions. However, I also do realize that some people actually need a 20k unit. And, I also realize that I don't.

 

[grsthegreat]

actually, its more economical to run a 22kw generator at half power than to run a 16kw maxed out. it all depend on the load. summer load is far different than winter loads. i have had people complain about their generators shutting down under loads..but no one has complained to me about their generators humming away for 3 days during an outage.

 

[ponytug]

@grsthegreat I believe you about the relative efficiency. Can you point me to the specific power plots for the Generac generators? I was curious, and I can't seem to find them myself.

 

[grsthegreat]

Im not sure what you mean by power plots

 

[Fxfymn413]

I found a 10 year old 17Kw Generac with around 150 hours on it on CL for $600.00 including the transfer switch so my buddy went and bought it. The seller said it is not producing power and he had it diagnosed as needing a stator or rotor which I'm pretty skeptical about. He is awaiting his new generator so it will be awhile until we get our hands on it, but my bet is it is not anything that catastrophic.

 

[grsthegreat]

Hopefully its not. One thing not worth replacing is rotor and stator set. If you can find one there way too expensive to blow on a 10 yr old machine. But it could be something as easy as brushes.

if they dont know anything about these units, he can purchase a diagnostic manual online. Very helpful in step by step repairs.

 

[Jchonline]

I am probably going with a Champion, something like this with our new house.

 

[gstrom99]

In my area if no transfer switch the power company will come by and pull your meter if you have a generator running to insure no power feedback into the grid. Not sure how this is handled in other areas. I have a Briggs & Stratton LP whole house with auto switch over. Sure is simple. Agree on sizing is a real problem since trying to determine peak load and running loads is a real challenge.

If there is a power outage, the power company has time to come pull your meter? and how would they know about it?