Backhoe Vs. 12000 LB Mini EX

[Curious kitten]

I have seen this question navigated through a few times. I'm re-asking it with some context specific to myself. I am potentially selling a business that has nothing to do with Tractors or equipment. Looking to re-invest my proceeds and start up a Small Scale (kinda side hustle) earth moving Company. I already have a skid loader, dump trailer, & a 14,000 lb equipment trailer that I acquired for some personal projects. My area is very rual. 1 in 5 farmers here already has a skid loader and the other 4 have access to one they can barrow. So good luck getting paid work with one of those. I have been thinking about investing in a backhoe or a larger mini ex as those machines are a little more scarce in these parts.


I’m leaning towards a bobcat E60 mini ex (12000lbs 13ft arm) or similar as it can fit on my trailer and can be easily towed with a 3/4 pickup. I believe the work I would find is septic install and repair, digging up water lines and sewer lines for plumbers, digging graves, and the occasional egress window or basement.

Got a few questions for the smaller scale excavators out there.

Am I targeting an appropriate machine that’s going to be marketable or do I need to look for something else bigger/smaller or completely different?

If I’m not asking a top secret trade secret question, what would someone charge hourly for a E60 and what area are you in?

Am I correct in thinking that a 12,000 pound mini ex is gonna be comparable to a backhoe just more towable and without the front bucket?

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I'd go with the excavator and skid steer. I just finished a job with a back hoe they had. I consider it a dinosaur compared to what is out there today. Backhoes were fine when that was all that was out there. Just like big dozers, a trackhoe and a skid steer will clear land. Plus you can pick up and drop stumps to get the dirt off so they'll burn easy. Dig a pit to burn them in. I just don't see any need for backhoes and dozers, unless you just want one.

 

[ultrarunner]

I bought my backhoe from a contractor that is all excavators and skid steers… plus his dump trucks and trailers…

 

[M59]

Curious Kitten,

Don't want to rain on a potentially profitable line of work

Do you have a CDL? Are you even in the USA since I don't see a location indicated in your profile. Unless you have a CDL, you are limited to total combined vehicle weight of 26,000 Lbs otherwise local DOT, especially with commercial plates and/ or doing commercial work is quickly going to make your life painful and expensive.

My 3500 dualie ( both sides have magnetic labels "Private use only. Not for Hire" ) and 14K Lb rated trailer with M59 TLB ( 84" FEL and backhoe ) scales at 22,320 Lbs which puts me well under the 26K limit. The problem is the M59, at 9,980 Lbs, on the 14K rated trailer scales at 13,680 Lbs. If I go over 14,000 Lbs then DOT gets me for overloaded equipment. Ka Ching. Pay the State and points on your record. Insurance goes up and commercial license gets dinged.

There is no way you are getting a 12K Lb machine on a 14K Lb trailer legally or safety wise.

Have you considered drumming up work first BEFORE laying out cash for any machine and renting the necessary equipment UNTIL you know you have a line of work/ customer base/ reputation to pay cash for the next piece of equipment?

0.02 worth.

 

[mred2]

A backhoe still can move dirt a short distance. A small mini ex is great for water lines. Not as much for stumps. As far as hauling, you can over load a 3/4 ton real fast. I had a 3/4 with a 14k trailer. Could only pull about 12,500 legal.

 

[crashz]

I'll echo M59. The weight of the excavator can put you in a weird spot. A couple of flaws I see in your thinking regarding moving the machine:
- Your 14K trailer is rated for a GCWR of 14K, not a load of 14K.
- Excavators are classed by weight. Be careful here because a 6 ton machine can be much heavier than 6 tons. In this case you were right on.
- To safety carry the E60 you may be into a 18K trailer, which could require a gooseneck or class 5 bumper hitch with WD. That give you less than 8000 for the truck. Federal transportation laws are based on the GVWR of towing and towed vehicles, not scale weights. You could eeek out of the 26K combined weight by the scale, but the door tag and trailer tag is what governs the need for a CDL.

But your question on the excavator is good. Yes, a 6-7ton machine is a handy size and out classes all but the largest industrial backhoes while being still pretty nimble. You can do a lot of work with a machine that size. May father has one and its perfect for residential type of work.

Like M59 said, maybe renting to start will help you decide on as few things. First, the rental house can deliver the machine. Second, it gives you some seat time in different models. Third, you can gauge the level of interest and see if there is enough business out there for the investment. It may actually push you to get a CDL and small dump truck to pull the excavator. Excavators and dumps trucks are like peanut butter and jelly.

 

[pokey1416]

Skip the mini and don’t worry about trailering. Pull a dump trailer behind you with attachments. Hire out the trucking if it’s a bigger job. Not many people in your area will be competing at this level. Of course I’m biased and at work spend almost all my time on streets and roads.

This thing is pretty cool! EWR130E | Excavators | Overview

 

[Curious kitten]

Curious Kitten,

Don't want to rain on a potentially profitable line of work

Do you have a CDL? Are you even in the USA since I don't see a location indicated in your profile. Unless you have a CDL, you are limited to total combined vehicle weight of 26,000 Lbs otherwise local DOT, especially with commercial plates and/ or doing commercial work is quickly going to make your life painful and expensive.

My 3500 dualie ( both sides have magnetic labels "Private use only. Not for Hire" ) and 14K Lb rated trailer with M59 TLB ( 84" FEL and backhoe ) scales at 22,320 Lbs which puts me well under the 26K limit. The problem is the M59, at 9,980 Lbs, on the 14K rated trailer scales at 13,680 Lbs. If I go over 14,000 Lbs then DOT gets me for overloaded equipment. Ka Ching. Pay the State and points on your record. Insurance goes up and commercial license gets dinged.

There is no way you are getting a 12K Lb machine on a 14K Lb trailer legally or safety wise.

Have you considered drumming up work first BEFORE laying out cash for any machine and renting the necessary equipment UNTIL you know you have a line of work/ customer base/ reputation to pay cash for the next piece of equipment?

0.02 worth.

Thanks for the 2 cents. I’m in South Dakota and staying under 26000 would be Ideal. I don’t have a CDL and have no intentions of getting one or paying the insurance for a rig that size. This is going to be a side-line gig and I want to keep the overhead low. The E60 does clock in just over 12K and if that plus the trailer puts me over 14k then I can make a slight adjustment and go for a E50 long arm or similar to shed some weight.

Part of my thinking in this business idea is based on the lack of rental options around. I have too higher a contractor to dig a trench at my day job once in a while and the equipment / contractors are coming from 3 hours out sometimes. The guys In The area with hoes are to booked up of just not interested In The one off work I have for them

As for drumming up work and renting. I’m kinda thinking I need the machine ready to go before anyone takes me seriously. This is kinda a everybody knows everybody community and everybody kowns what you got. And as far has saying, “yeah I got rental options lined up”. The good old boys around here are just gonna say “why don’t I just rent it myself”.

I guess the main question is: is a larger mini ex that is still small enough to fit on my 20ft 14k trailer. Gonna be appropriate to do the work a backhoe would generally be considered for. But also take into consideration I already got the skid loader to move piles if it’s something like a basement.

And if doesn’t work or make sense I’ll ask a broader question. What is a machine that I can mobe without a CDL that Doesn't require additional equipment or crew to get work done. And to operate it I can invoice a customer double the amount an hour that I make punching a clock for someone else? Say ($80-$100)

 

[M59]

Thanks for the 2 cents. I’m in South Dakota and staying under 26000 would be Ideal. I don’t have a CDL and have no intentions of getting one or paying the insurance for a rig that size. This is going to be a side-line gig and I want to keep the overhead low. The E60 does clock in just over 12K and if that plus the trailer puts me over 14k then I can make a slight adjustment and go for a E50 long arm or similar to shed some weight.

Part of my thinking in this business idea is based on the lack of rental options around. I have too higher a contractor to dig a trench at my day job once in a while and the equipment / contractors are coming from 3 hours out sometimes. The guys In The area with hoes are to booked up of just not interested In The one off work I have for them

As for drumming up work and renting. I’m kinda thinking I need the machine ready to go before anyone takes me seriously. This is kinda a everybody knows everybody community and everybody kowns what you got. And as far has saying, “yeah I got rental options lined up”. The good old boys around here are just gonna say “why don’t I just rent it myself”.

I guess the main question is: is a larger mini ex that is still small enough to fit on my 20ft 14k trailer. Gonna be appropriate to do the work a backhoe would generally be considered for. But also take into consideration I already got the skid loader to move piles if it’s something like a basement.

And if doesn’t work or make sense I’ll ask a broader question. What is a machine that I can mobe without a CDL that Doesn't require additional equipment or crew to get work done. And to operate it I can invoice a customer double the amount an hour that I make punching a clock for someone else? Say ($80-$100)

Curious Kitten,

My thoughts after running a 65+ employee manufacturing company and retiring into playing with light heavy equipment for fun projects including landscaping, road building, bridge repair/ building, ditching, land clearing,...

I don't know the prevailing local rates for a man & machine in S. Dakota but you can take an educated stab at the rates by doing the following: What is the monthly rental rate for the equipment you are looking at plus what is the hourly wage for a equipment operator? I use the monthly rental as this represents the amortization cost of the equipment plus a profit to the rental company.
Given current wage rates, a equipment operator is probably being paid $25 plus benefits per hour so round to $35-40/ hour. An equipment operator is not a cashier or McDonald's employee wage rate because they have no equipment operating experience and will abuse/break good equipment.

In my rural area of NC, I can easily see $100 per hour for man and machine BUT you need to consider your costs. What do you want to be paid per hour, how old are you, how bad do you want to hustle to build a side gig or full time gig, maintenance cost for commercially worked equipment ( banks typically fully amortize a excavator over three years since they consider it worthless after that and won't lend money beyond that term if excavator used as the collateral ).
What is your sunk cost for either buying new or used machine in today's market? Equipment is outrageously expensive right now. I just watched a auction for 4500 hour KX 080 is good condition go for $51K. A reasonable price for a 20K pound machine. I suggest you watch the on-line auctions to better understand prices for the equipment you are interested in.

Now to the point of excavator vs backhoe vs bulldozer, vs trackloader/skidsteer. In my opinion the backhoe, such as the Kubota M59 TLB, is a more versatile piece of equipment than all of the other above mentioned equipment due to you have access to the greatest range of implements for various jobs and it meets the non CDL limit of 26K Lb CGVW ( combined gross vehicle weight AND it can be loaded onto a trailer rated for 14K total Lbs without exceeding the trailer rated weight. The larger TLBs ( L45 and M59 ) are versatile ( jack of all trades king of none ) and have working implements on both ends of the machine (FEL and Hoe ) at same time. In general terms an excavator will outdig a backhoe, given comparable weights and horsepower, BUT can not carry their spoil away from the work place so a dump trailer/ dump truck is needed depending on distance earth to be moved. Same applies to backhoe and is the reason I have a 3500 diesel dualie and 14K Lb / 7 cubic yard dump trailer. In summary the equipment other than the backhoe are more specialized pieces of equipment that work better than the generalized backhoe. The trackloader is somewhat generalized because, like the TLBs, it too has large range of implements BUT I have never seen a trackloader with a loader bucket and backhoe on the machine at the same time.

Caveat: A TLB is different from a John Deere type backhoe since the the Deere has fixed ( some newer have a SSQA on loader ) loader bucket and backhoe whereas the TLB have the ability to replace the loader bucket and backhoe with other implements. TLB versatility vs Deere reach and lift capacity.

Would I dig a basement with a trackloader/ skidsteer? No, not what the machine was designed for. That is work for an excavator or backhoe although I have seen it done with larger ( 40K Lb ) dozer in sandy ground but it looks like a bowl because dozer needs to push the spoil away from basement area.

I think I have answered your questions but if not then ask specific ones and I will reply.

 

[crashz]

You'll want to get the actual payload of your truck/trailer combo to determine the largest machine size you can carry. My guess is its probably in the 10 or 11K pound category. A little smaller, but still a capable size.

I can see the point on rental in your area, and that's definitely a community specific issue.

Its tempting to quote hourly rates. That is how I quote mowing. Generally, if you don't have a breakdown, you'll won't lose money. But you can hamper yourself that way and if you are productive, the only winner is the customer. This is great to establish regular customers, but dooms you to making less and less money as you become more efficient. Breakdowns are on you, and if you are slow, you'll look like you're milking the job. As you say, everyone knows everyone.

But if you do quote hourly rates, you'll need to establish them. I raised my mowing rates from $65 to $75 per hour this year. The rate is based on est. fuel burned, insurance (tractor, truck, trailer and liability), a dummy number of $20 per hour for maintenance and repairs, and paying myself $20 per hour. I also try to balance the rate with what I expect is reasonable for my area for guy with tractor and 5ft brush cutter. When I estimate a job I estimate the number of hours and state that I have a 4 hour minimum with travel time to the job factored in (no de-mob).

The problem is twofold:
First, I only cut fields for established clients now and make less than $3,000 per year. Even if you are dedicated full time, will you be able to keep your excavator running 40hrs per week? Probably not. Factor that in.

Second, I have not included major equipment replacement in my pricing. Maybe the $20/hr would cover it if the tractor was mowing 40hrs per week, but its not. My equipment outlay is not nearly the cost of yours, but then again, my market and services will not allow higher pricing.