Yesterday. Would you buy and EV?

[jyoutz]

^my suspicion is the manufacturers want batteries that fail and can't be economically replaced after 10 years in order to drive future new car sales.

Has anybody seen any rechargeable battery that lasts forever? I sure haven’t. The batteries on my solar lights and hand tools last a long time, but fail eventually.

 

[Bentrim]

Considering EV technology is where ice technology was back in the early 1900's. As the development of EV advances they will get better, but in the meantime there will be hiccups and "experimentation" by EV manufacturers just as it was for any technology. Remember not long ago a computer needed a whole room, now the fit in our phones, tractors were huge and cumbersome beasts with huge engines and little horsepower, now they fit lots of power into small packages, with much better reliability.
As EV's improve in both battery life and safety, they will become more accepted, just as the ice did.
As for me just shy of the 3/4 century mark, I don't expect to see them the "gotta have" item in my life time, that is unless our freedoms are taken from us and it is the only vehicle that can be purchased.

 

[Oaktree]

Considering EV technology is where ice technology was back in the early 1900's. As the development of EV advances they will get better, but in the meantime there will be hiccups and "experimentation" by EV manufacturers just as it was for any technology. Remember not long ago a computer needed a whole room, now the fit in our phones, tractors were huge and cumbersome beasts with huge engines and little horsepower, now they fit lots of power into small packages, with much better reliability.
As EV's improve in both battery life and safety, they will become more accepted, just as the ice did.
As for me just shy of the 3/4 century mark, I don't expect to see them the "gotta have" item in my life time, that is unless our freedoms are taken from us and it is the only vehicle that can be purchased.

I agree for the most part, though I think EVs are further along than ICEs were in the early 1900s...maybe the 1930s. I don't see the current track of strictly battery EVs to stand the test of time, there are just too many drawbacks which so many of the fanboys dismiss. Electric motors for the power train, yep, but with some on-board power generating source that's easily refueled. Likewise with all the ultra-tech-y ergonomics that for the most part aren't very user-friendly. Yeah, that appeals to the "gotta be the first on my block to have the latest toy" crowd, but not so much for mass adoption.

As with you, it's probably a moot point for me. I'm in my early 70s myself and never buy new vehicles so by the time EVs are mainstream enough so there are reliable 7-10 year old used ones I'll likely be on the other side of the grass.

 

[scootr]

I have read the following.
The man that invented the Lithium battery is working on a new version that stores energy in sand not heavy metals. They have so far been able to store the energy in the glass type substance. The challenge now is releasing it fast enough to be useful.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

Electric cars date back over 120 years.

 

[crashz]

I look forward to a small electric garden tractor. As I get older, quiet operation is more important. The noise just beats me up. Actually, I really like all of my battery operated lawn tools (trimmer, hedge trimmer, blower and saw). So an electric garden tractor to mow and tow with would be very nice, probably quiet and reliable, and really wouldn't need more that about 4 hrs of run time. I think that's much more feasible right now than a car. Wouldn't replace my Kubota, but would be a nice mower.

I'm no fanboy, but I do see electrification as the future. I just see the gobber-ment doing it all wrong. Legislating out ICE vehicles before we have any reliable electric infrastructure is ridiculous. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the federal and state governments shelled out massive amounts of cash to build the interstate system, right? This is what is needed to invest in electrification of the US vehicle fleet. Not banning the current fleet. Did they ban horses and carriages?

 

[scootr]

Electric cars date back over 120 years.

Took a while for them to catch on

 

[MossRoad]

.... Did they ban horses and carriages?

The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894

By the late 1800s, large cities all around the world were drowning in horse manure. The London Times predicted in 1894 that in 50 years time, every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure.

www.historic-uk.com

 

[nickfank]

From Bloomberg:

Wind Turbines Taller Than the Statue of Liberty Are Falling Over

If I post a few pictures of tractors that have stopped working recently, will we all conclude that tractors as a group are not viable technology, or will we open our eyes, notice that most tractors work fine, and understand that they are useful?

The question is not whether you can find a few failures, because of course you can, no matter what technology you're looking at.

The important question is whether there are so many failures that the technology is not viable.

There are currently 71,000 wind turbines in the US. This article names three that have failed. Let's suppose that the article understates the problem by a factor of 30, and in fact, 100 have failed. Now put that in the context of the 70,900 that are still working just fine. That's a failure rate of 0.00141.

We shouldn't ignore failures, but we should act rationally, and do the math on the *rate of failure*. The same holds true for the more general EV question that started this thread. Yes, some EVs fail. However, the truth is that the overwhelming majority are reliable. Some EVs catch fire. However, the truth is that per mile travelled, there are more fires reported for ICE vehicles. Some EV repairs are very expensive, but the truth is that most EVs cost less over their lifetime to operate than their ICE counterparts. The truth emerges when you look at the big picture instead of focusing on a few cherry-picked stories.

Nobody has to take advantage of the opportunity to save money by operating an EV and powering it with renewable energy sources. I understand that many don't have the resources to give it a try yet, or are simply more cautious. I respect those personal decisions and the situations that drive them. However, as a person who is happily using this reliable technology every day, I occasionally have to point out that articles like this are designed to mislead you.

 

[nickfank]

As with you, it's probably a moot point for me. I'm in my early 70s myself and never buy new vehicles so by the time EVs are mainstream enough so there are reliable 7-10 year old used ones I'll likely be on the other side of the grass.

At 60-ish, I'm just starting to think about whether I'll get full value out of each major purchase in the time left to me.

I purchased my 2016 EV about 3 years ago, so it wasn't quite in the 7-10 years old category you mentioned, but it was 4 years old when I got it, and it's currently my reliable daily driver at 7 years old. Our family also has a 2019 that we purchased used, and it gets daily use as well.

Here's the secret many people won't tell you about EVs: They're fun to drive. I've already had enough fun with the 2016 in the first three years to justify the cost, and if it keeps running for another 5 years, the cost will go to zero because of how inexpensive it is to operate vs the ICE vehicle it replaced.

My advice to other folks who are a little past middle-age is to give it a try if you can get a good deal on a used EV that has the range you need for daily driving. It's fun, and in the long run, cheaper.

 

[nickfank]

If an EV has a real world life expectancy of under 10 years, is that acceptable? If I bought a car and in less than 10 years, I needed to pay $26k for a new battery, I'm honestly not sure what I would do.

Let's do the math...

The cost to fuel an ICE car is about 15 cents per mile. The cost to fuel an EV is about 4 cents.

In ten years, most folks put 200,000 miles on a car, so $30,000 in fuel for the ICE, and $8,000 for the EV. That's $22,000 savings in fuel.

Now add in the maintenance costs for an ICE car... Oil, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs & wires, periodic tune-ups, transmission maintenance, brakes... If you pay about $400/year for parts & labor on those maintenance tasks, over 10 years, you've saved $4,000 more, for a total of $26,000, so it comes out even.

$26K sounds like a pile of money, but since you buy your fuel $60 at a time, that seems small until you add up 10 years worth of those fill-ups plus maintenance.

(BTW, before somebody calls me out on the brake maintenance... My EV is on the original factory pads at just over 50,000 miles, and they've still got 3/8" left on them. I *might* have to replace them at 150,000 miles.)

 

[nickfank]

After reading over recent comments on this thread, I have to ask how many people have been banned from using their gas/diesel fueled cars? I'm guessing the same number that had Obama take their guns away. (But who knows, maybe I missed the news, and I'm in violation now. Maybe the SWAT team will be showing up this afternoon for my tractor and rifle.)

 

[LittleBill21]

Let's do the math...

The cost to fuel an ICE car is about 15 cents per mile. The cost to fuel an EV is about 4 cents.

In ten years, most folks put 200,000 miles on a car, so $30,000 in fuel for the ICE, and $8,000 for the EV. That's $22,000 savings in fuel.

Now add in the maintenance costs for an ICE car... Oil, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs & wires, periodic tune-ups, transmission maintenance, brakes... If you pay about $400/year for parts & labor on those maintenance tasks, over 10 years, you've saved $4,000 more, for a total of $26,000, so it comes out even.

$26K sounds like a pile of money, but since you buy your fuel $60 at a time, that seems small until you add up 10 years worth of those fill-ups plus maintenance.

(BTW, before somebody calls me out on the brake maintenance... My EV is on the original factory pads at just over 50,000 miles, and they've still got 3/8" left on them. I *might* have to replace them at 150,000 miles.)

so were not going to talk about the 400 dollar coolant flushes required in EV's? that are every 1 or 3 years, and this includes tesla and kia's new ev6 or whatever it is, there is also a tesla mechanic on reddit, and he tells you the real prices , end ev's have a lot of maintenance as well, so stop pushing this comment, in my last 6 vehicles, I have done nothing in terms of engine or transmission issues, everything else broke, which by the way are on EV's as well. and when the brakes are welded in place, like they are on tesla's i'm told it is a 4 figure repair. or the price of tires and the wear they go through due to the weight of the car? or the plans to 4x the registration costs for ev's that are in the works? early adopters may have gotten a break, those doors are going to be closed quickly.

both vehicles have pro's and con's lets stop pretending either is vastly superior, and i keep vehicles over 15 years, most ev's are in the junkyard at that point. on reddit most ev's battery's being replaced under warranty are upwards of 20k+.... so you have a huge gamble there. and i have a lot of experience with lithium batteries, until the technology changes, there is nothing they can do to extend it.

 

[nickfank]

so were not going to talk about the 400 dollar coolant flushes required in EV's? that are every 1 or 3 years, and this includes tesla and kia's new ev6 or whatever it is, there is also a tesla mechanic on reddit, and he tells you the real prices , end ev's have a lot of maintenance as well, so stop pushing this comment, in my last 6 vehicles, I have done nothing in terms of engine or transmission issues, everything else broke, which by the way are on EV's as well. and when the brakes are welded in place, like they are on tesla's i'm told it is a 4 figure repair.

both vehicles have pro's and con's lets stop pretending either is vastly superior, and i keep vehicles over 15 years, most ev's are in the junkyard at that point. on reddit most ev's battery's being replaced under warranty are upwards of 20k+.... so you have a huge gamble there. and i a lot of experience with lithium batteries, until the technology changes, there is nothing they can do to extend it.

Hmm... On my 2016 Kia EV, I've never done one of these coolant flushes you speak of. I know for a fact that the Tesla Model Y manual says there's no need to flush the coolant ever, but I can't speak with authority about any other EVs, so I won't. I currently operate two EVs (a Kia and a Chevy), and know about the Model Y because I was considering buying a used one. What's your level of experience operating or maintaining EVs?

I agree that they are not perfect, but I stand by the information I provided. And yes, they are vastly superior. While I'm not a professional mechanic, I've rebuilt a dozen car, tractor and motorcycle engines over the years, and have been doing my own maintenance for 44 years, so I've had some experience with both types of technology.

 

[crashz]

HA! - Horse manure crisis! Good Post!

I should have clarified Nick, no ICE vehicles are regulated for owning and driving. But manufacture and purchase in some states have a looming deadline. Even NH has a bill on the floor limiting new ICE car sales in 2032. I doubt it will pass, but these bills gain traction once other states file the regulation. Just like pot.

My point was that we are incentivizing using the stick and should be using a carrot. Promote more clean energy (of all types because it will need everything we can throw at the grid), huge power infrastructure upgrades and let cheaper electricity drive the market towards EV's. But this is highly dependant on power generation and delivery, which need to be bolstered.

 

[Bentrim]

Any body remember these? Do you still have one? Open hood see batteries, lift seat see batteries. Mower, each blade had its own motor, as did the tiller and snow blower. If you haven't seen one they were made in the 70's. And didn't go over to big, but some folks collect them now.

 

[LittleBill21]

Hmm... On my 2016 Kia EV, I've never done one of these coolant flushes you speak of. I know for a fact that the Tesla Model Y manual says there's no need to flush the coolant ever, but I can't speak with authority about any other EVs, so I won't. I currently operate two EVs (a Kia and a Chevy), and know about the Model Y because I was considering buying a used one. What's your level of experience operating or maintaining EVs?

I agree that they are not perfect, but I stand by the information I provided. And yes, they are vastly superior. While I'm not a professional mechanic, I've rebuilt a dozen car, tractor and motorcycle engines over the years, and have been doing my own maintenance for 44 years, so I've had some experience with both types of technology.

3 people I work with daily own them, one a hybrid from hyundai 2015, his requires the coolant flush, and I recently drove the ev6 which or whatever model it is from kia another coworker just bought, who does 1k miles a week. , and when i started the vehicle it complained that the coolant flush was past due, so sounds like you don't read your maintenance procedures for your vehicles. I have worked with lithium technology for over 20 years, there is nothing new there to me.

I also noticed you didn't mention the 2500+ install cost for most people to support stage 2 charging.

let me be clear, I want a EV since i don't live near gas stations, but the ROI simply doesn't pan out for me.

 

[LittleBill21]

Any body remember these? Do you still have one?View attachment 781062

my neighbor owned something like this about 20 years ago, it used 12 or 14 lead acid batteries, was able to cut grass for 30 minutes, and took 6 hours to charge, all you heard were the blades spinning, nothing else. had it for several years.

 

[lman]

Let's do the math...

The cost to fuel an ICE car is about 15 cents per mile. The cost to fuel an EV is about 4 cents.

In ten years, most folks put 200,000 miles on a car, so $30,000 in fuel for the ICE, and $8,000 for the EV. That's $22,000 savings in fuel.

Now add in the maintenance costs for an ICE car... Oil, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs & wires, periodic tune-ups, transmission maintenance, brakes... If you pay about $400/year for parts & labor on those maintenance tasks, over 10 years, you've saved $4,000 more, for a total of $26,000, so it comes out even.

$26K sounds like a pile of money, but since you buy your fuel $60 at a time, that seems small until you add up 10 years worth of those fill-ups plus maintenance.

(BTW, before somebody calls me out on the brake maintenance... My EV is on the original factory pads at just over 50,000 miles, and they've still got 3/8" left on them. I *might* have to replace them at 150,000 miles.)

I use about .08/mile of fuel in our car and I didn't have to install and buy some heavy duty wiring to the garage.
My concern is that there is no free market for electricity to your house, so when the prices start going up due to higher demand, there is no way to shop for cheaper home electricity. Solar is not an option here.

 

[nickfank]

3 people I work with daily own them, one a hybrid from hyundai 2015, his requires the coolant flush, and I recently drove the ev6 which or whatever model it is from kia another coworker just bought, who does 1k miles a week. , and when i started the vehicle it complained that the coolant flush was past due, so sounds like you don't read your maintenance procedures for your vehicles. I have worked with lithium technology for over 20 years, there is nothing new there to me.

OK, so you know people who own them. Oh, but at least one of those is a *hybrid* (you know that means it's powered by a gas engine, right?) Lithium battery technology has changed just a little in 20 years. (That's so obvious I can't believe I have to say it.) Yes, I've read my maintenance manuals. Oddly, I trust my years of actual experience and the manuals in my glovebox more than someone on the internet who knows somebody who owns a hybrid.

Sarcasm aside, I know there are *some* EVs out there that recommend coolant flushes. The EV6 is one of them. On that we agree. I also know that none of those require more frequent coolant flushes than an ICE vehicle, because the the operating temperatures are lower and you don't have to deal with contamination from combustion. (That's why the model Y manual doesn't recommend flushes at all.)