Battery based vehicles of today and tomorrow pt 2

[MossRoad]

It is a gigantic leap of faith. I'm ultra conservative and a bit of a control freak. I would struggle immensely. I am critical of things. Wife's car has auto dim headlights, I despise them. Auto wipers, I despise them. After driving it occasionally over the past 6-7 years I am getting somewhat comfortable with the backup camera but I'm still rubber necking all around me.

My mother in-law has trouble looking over her shoulders due to stiffness from old age and liver transplant. She has had a Buick Encore for about a year now. It has a backup camera. She loves it. But she trusts it too much, in that she throws the thing in reverse and zooms back out our driveway. We've had to mention to her several times to slow down.

I have backup camera on my Ford Transit Connect work van. I really like it as I'm in parking lots with lots of vehicle and pedestrian traffic every day. I put the thing in reverse and the backup beeper sounds off, I count to 5 while I scan the screen, then start backing out slowly. The little lines on the screen are very accurate as to how close I am to something behind me. I still have to use the side mirrors though. It's quite a wide-angle lens and works great.

Auto adjusting wipers.... BAAAA! I hate them too!

 

[ovrszd]

My mother in-law has trouble looking over her shoulders due to stiffness from old age and liver transplant. She has had a Buick Encore for about a year now. It has a backup camera. She loves it. But she trusts it too much, in that she throws the thing in reverse and zooms back out our driveway. We've had to mention to her several times to slow down.

I have backup camera on my Ford Transit Connect work van. I really like it as I'm in parking lots with lots of vehicle and pedestrian traffic every day. I put the thing in reverse and the backup beeper sounds off, I count to 5 while I scan the screen, then start backing out slowly. The little lines on the screen are very accurate as to how close I am to something behind me. I still have to use the side mirrors though. It's quite a wide-angle lens and works great.

Auto adjusting wipers.... BAAAA! I hate them too!

I am compassionate in regards to human limitations. I know from Gale's postings that this is what compelled his Son to lean on him hard about getting the Tesla.

In regards to autonomous driving, are we to believe the vehicle will be better at avoiding an accident than an attentive driver? That's a huge leap of faith for me.

With a backup camera I always assume there's a vehicle coming that I don't see. So I move backward at a slow enough pace that they will realize I don't see them and give them an opportunity to avoid me. My wife does that religiously. Her camera is also very accurate in projecting where the vehicle is headed based on the angle of the front tires.

 

[Fixastuff]

In regards to autonomous driving, are we to believe the vehicle will be better at avoiding an accident than an attentive driver? That's a huge leap of faith for me.

And you have more faith in the average human driver than I do.

 

[MossRoad]

I am compassionate in regards to human limitations. I know from Gale's postings that this is what compelled his Son to lean on him hard about getting the Tesla.

In regards to autonomous driving, are we to believe the vehicle will be better at avoiding an accident than an attentive driver? That's a huge leap of faith for me.

With a backup camera I always assume there's a vehicle coming that I don't see. So I move backward at a slow enough pace that they will realize I don't see them and give them an opportunity to avoid me. My wife does that religiously. Her camera is also very accurate in projecting where the vehicle is headed based on the angle of the front tires.

I recent years around here, they (the state and county highway departments) have been installing the rumble bar depressions on the centerlines of non-divided highways, as well as just over the white line on the right side of the right lanes. We've had an extraordinary number of either head-on collisions with people crossing center lines, or people running off the right side of the roads over the years. They're installing them with every repaying as they go along.

I've never hit the center ones through inattention, but I have hit the ones on the right side of the road. They snap you to attention instantly. Kinda makes me wonder how often I get to the side that I don't reailize. (You can intentionally hit them to give the kids simulated helicopter rides on the off ramps. Sounds just like it ). I consider myself a pretty attentive driver, especially when there are other cars around. It's those roads where there is no other traffic when the mind seems to back off a bit on the attentiveness. I'm looking for deer and tractors.

I've found in the couple of cars I've driven with the lane monitoring, the steering wheel shakes if you get too close to either lane line, and instantly makes you more attentive. And, it happened more times than I thought it would have, even with my perceived attentiveness. So I'm going to assume that I get too close to the right lane line more often than I realize, just based on the few times the lane alert shook my wheel.

I don't mind that feature.

 

[Grumpycat]

$60k for a new car.
How many finance to buy it? The vast majority I would imagine.
So, yes, math is fun:
A 2023 Kia Rio has an $16,550 MSRP, 32city/41hwy mpg.
The EV must be charged, so add in home charger cost + electricity bill increase + whatever remote (25c/kwh or $22 for 250 mile range [per Tesla site], 8.8c/mile) cost is.
At $3.50/gal, 35mpg= 10c/mile.
Financing $60k you pay interest (same with $16,550, except less payback).
Paying cash either one you lose that amount if you were to invest it. Of course you lose more with $60k...or buy the Kia and you would have $43,450 to invest!
Yes...math IS fun! Weeee!

But you would have to drive a Kia.

Your comparison is not fair because you can not purchase gasoline for $3.50/gallon where electricity is $0.25/kWh.

Gale got a very nice Y for under $50k net. National average new car price is currently $47k. For less than an alternative ICE he was considering. Spin as hard as you wish pretending a bottom tier Kia is comparable to any Tesla.

You want to use Kia to represent ICE? Chevrolet Bolt EV, $25,600 before $7500 tax credit. 259 mile EPA range. 0.280 kWh/mile.

Compare Side-by-Side

Compare the MPG of cars and trucks side-by-side. Compare the gas mileage and greenhouse gas emissions of new and used cars and trucks

fueleconomy.gov

Bolt is no where near as nice as a Y, but neither is a Kia.

 

[Grumpycat]

Take away the tax incentives...

Inconvenient Truth: Tesla sales have not had a "tax incentive" since 2016. Not until recently.

 

[/pine]

Inconvenient Truth: Tesla sales have not had a "tax incentive" since 2016. Not until recently.

So one less benefit of buying a (Tesla) EV...
Besides:

Upside Down: Study Reveals EVs Cost More to Drive Than Gas-Powered

Things just went upside down as electric vehicles cost more to drive 100 miles than gas-powered cars, a new study shows.

www.motorbiscuit.com

 

[Grumpycat]

What I wonder about is.. How long will all those electrical connections last in an EV in the salt in the winter. If Florida is any indication, not long. One thing I always do is, I pack all my electrical connections with conductive grease. Tractors included. A Molex connector is only as good as the seal.

You actually use conductive grease and not dielectric grease? Dielectric grease is an insulator. "Dielectric constant" is the engineering term for the ability of a material to hold voltages apart.

Why would an EV electrical connection be any poorer than ICE electrical connections? Am amazed at how cheap connectors have lasted in ICE vehicles over the decades. Then again my 2009 Mercedes-Benz was in the shop 8 times under warranty before they found the bad connection inside the vehicle. But not before they replaced the DEF injector and the NOS NOx sensor.

To the credit of any EV, it is a new design and the designers will be less bound to use traditional connectors. There are a lot of very good weather proof connectors available, even from Molex.

 

[California]

It's a false and misleading argument to compare the projected cost of operating a new EV, against a used or long-paid off ICE.
The honest evaluation is new EV vs NEW ICE car of similar cost. That's the choice that every real-world buyer is facing.

No they don’t, at least people who know how to manage money don’t.
You compare size, features and options.

You and I know to compare features and how to manage money. That's why neither of us presently owns an EV! I was describing the people who actually have gone into a showroom and committed, particularly early on when little was known about EVs. Those are the EVs you see on the road today.

I waited for the Bolt before it was introduced, thinking that would replace one of the elderly small station wagons I described above ('California cars'). Then when Bolt actually went on sale I evaluated 'size, features and options' as you note, and found it was far too small for the stuff we continually carry the 100 miles between home and ranch. Likewise the Tesla Y, the next EV I considered. It's price before introduction was in the $30k's for 2wd which would meet my needs. Actual cost after they were on the market was near $70K. Nope, again. Now with the recent price drop I might actually go ahead with that if the Ford wiring problem means retiring that car. The Y is a near-comparable to anything else I might buy on size, features, options and I think far superior in the driver assist features that Gale describes. As I expect to still be driving my next car by my 80th birthday, I want the one best suited for that future. Manage money? Unless there is some advantageous alternative, I expect to pay cash like I always have. I've never financed anything aside from real estate.

 

[Grumpycat]

So one less benefit of buying a (Tesla) EV...
Besides:

Upside Down: Study Reveals EVs Cost More to Drive Than Gas-Powered

Things just went upside down as electric vehicles cost more to drive 100 miles than gas-powered cars, a new study shows.

www.motorbiscuit.com

I am so glad you cited that fool link!

"$11.60/100 miles to drive an EV! OMG it is $0.31/mile more than an ICE!"

Gale's Y would require $0.446/kWh electricity to cost that much. So how the heck did they pad their numbers for supposedly average Michigan costs?

Actually read the article and drill down to the so-called "report" at https://s3-prod.autonews.com/2023-01/EV Cost Analysis 2022 Q4 Update.pdf

They invent a "mostly home charging" chart showing $11.60/100 miles, $1392 for 12,000 miles. 1/3rd of the bar in the chart is "Cost of Chargers", or $462, which is defined as, "amortized cost of pump or charger".

Amortized means averaged over some length of time such as the useful life. A $230 Tesla Mobile Connector has an amortized lifetime cost of $464/year? It plugs into a 120V 15A outlet (you already have those, right?) Optionally a dryer outlet. Also comes with a NEMA 14-50 plug. Am sure you can pay an electrician $5000 to install one but a NEMA 14-50 circuit costs less than $100 in parts for a short run. Distribution panels are commonly found in garages. Easy to install.

Every real man needs a NEMA 14-50 for his welder! Else surrender your man card!

Many farms have gasoline and/or diesel tanks, and their own dispensers. This "study" didn't factor in the cost of a home gas tank to fuel the ICE to accurately compare ICE to EV. They certainly made big hay with the high cost of using public chargers. I make an easy claim to state that a gasoline or diesel dispenser will cost many times more than an EV EVSE.