Post COVID CUT tractoring “truths”

[finn1]

Well I have a little 1705 Massey on a 8 acre wooded area. I have one friend with a 40hp tractor and another with a 35hp tractor. Each have smaller acreage and no woods to maintain. I have helped both. I have moved more dirt than either one at any time i have helped. They each were all talked into having a tractor that size when they didnt need to. The bigger the tractor doesn't translate into better operating. The inadequacies will always be there and for these gents. They will remain below average operators for sometime. This is where i think the bigger tractor theory really gets in the way. I think the more appropriate way to steer newbies is to go ahead and get the extra hydraulics and those types of things as that is cheaper at the time of purchase.

Nobody has convinced my why a person who owns a 3 acre lot needs a 40HP tractor. Its bizarre to me. Even what you are saying just seems strange. What regret would a hobby farmer or a guy with 10 acres have? That it took another hour to do the task he's doing? Had he had a 35HP tractor it would have taken 15 minutes less to till the garden. I respectively disagree and think money is better spent on implements and a third valve

Different priorities for different people. We get 300” of snow most years. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Blowing wet spring snow takes a lot of power, especially after a 24” snowfall. Even 40 hp is marginal sometimes if you don’t have all day to spend doing the cleanup.

Toting a loader around, or moving a few logs or buckets of firewood around…not so much.

 

[edgarrian]

Different priorities for different people. We get 300” of snow most years. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Blowing wet spring snow takes a lot of power, especially after a 24” snowfall. Even 40 hp is marginal sometimes if you don’t have all day to spend doing the cleanup.

Toting a loader around, or moving a few logs or buckets of firewood around…not so much.

That would make sense for snow removal purposes given the area. You are right that it takes HP to move snow as i have blow my dads driveway out and it sometimes its all it can handle. I would say a majority of the guys that are told to get bigger tractor just dont have that as a critical task. I mean even I get anywhere from 1-2ft of snow once in awhile. Im not buying a bigger tractor b/c it happens once a year. I clear it with my current setup and move along. We had 18" in one fall a few years ago and I cleared mine and my neighbors. Took maybe 3-4 hours. I have about a 400' driveway and it circles around. So its a good size driveway. My point is small can get it done as well. Will it take a bit longer. Sure. Ive installed driveways with my machine. building pads and so on. So its not just moving a couple logs around and toting my loader. Im more seasoned than that. Which is why i said more seasoned equipment operators dont need a big machine. but it seems like people here will suggest bigger to someone that is brand new. Its really unnecessary

 

[edgarrian]

so you bought the size of tractor that you needed, check i think that is what i said. my point being going a little larger than what you need is better than a little smaller than what you need, for 1 the price delta between the much too small SCUTs and the CUTs is small, ie in my experience a 2900 lb CUT is 23k and a 3700 lb CUT is 25k so 26% more weight, traction, capabilities for 9% more money. i just went thru that pricing exercise last year with the LS MT347e vs the MT240E, and i'm not talking about the hp because that was not an issues in my case. so i'm not saying to just get a bigger tractor for the sake of a bigger tractor, I'm saying to not buy to small of a tractor because the price delta is not significant (in this case 9%). in my case i went with a 5400 lb CUT and it cost 29k so 86% more capabilities for 26% more money vs the MT2. if you are not sure on exactly how much tractor you need i would error on the larger side IMO.

to your point of what would i regret, well try removing a 8" tree from your property without leaving a stump. the extra weight makes it an easy job without overstressing the tractor, could i have done it with a smaller tractor? yes i could but after 10 of them you are very happy that you have the extra capabilities and the tractor is happy that you are not over working it.

BTW we have differing opinions both can be valid depending on the situation, no disrespect intended.

If you have the proper implements you can get the 8" stump removed without much effort. I rent a excavator about once every few years. Basically I wait until I have a few tasks So as an example sometime in the near future i plan on renting an excavator. As we built a greenhouse i need to install some downspout tile. So all the stumps in my circle driveway need to be removed. So ill make them with orange paint and take them out along with a few more trees so i can get that landscaping project underway. Then ill use the excavator to help pick up layed down trees so can cut them up a little easier. So I guess if you consider that than yes i could use a bigger tractor but sometimes tractors are not the most efficient at certain jobs. So for me spending 350 once every three years is worth it.

I think with what you are saying and moving up just a bit more can make sense. What i see a lot of on this forum is people telling guys to get a 40hp for these small lots and its just not that necessary.

No worries on the disrespect as i dont think either one of us has intent

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

“Xxx hasn’t been around as long as JD or Kubota.” So what. For CUTs those names aren’t the same as they were nor the same as their real Ag machines. The one I chose - kioti - has been in the US for more than 30 years; I’ll likely have left my machine to my survivors in 30 years. And EVERY brand has recalls, detractors, supporters, and (especially since 2021) parts issues.

I'm just seeing this thread now. What you're missing here is Risk. 2nd hand brands carry more risk. The reason you got a discount on your Kioti is due to the inherent risk it carries as a smaller, off brand of tractor.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Now, there is a reason I didn't replace my Deere with another Deere, and wallet aside it came down to their corporate policies, and dealer consolidation. Now it was admittedly made a little easier because the 3025E is terrible. The one machine Deere had in the category I want lacks so much, and doesn't even come close to the ergonomics of the R models; no suspension seat, impeded leg room, and a loader that can't be dropped. The machine exists to cater to those who won't buy another color, but can't be upsold to an R model. That doesn't make it good, it makes it the bare minimum.

That machine is about to lose half it's value over night when the Kubota 40XX model comes out this spring. Another year has passed and Deere has not updated their compact tractors. The E and R series compacts have been in production for 12-14 years with virtually no changes. That tells you something about Deere's interest in this market.

 

[tacticalturnip]

That machine is about to lose half it's value over night when the Kubota 40XX model comes out this spring. Another year has passed and Deere has not updated their compact tractors. The E and R series compacts have been in production for 12-14 years with virtually no changes. That tells you something about Deere's interest in this market.

Kubota 40XX? I'm not familiar with what machines you're speaking of. I know the rest of the L02 line is coming out, and two LX machines as well; what did I miss?

 

[Beeenvenue]

I'm just seeing this thread now. What you're missing here is Risk. 2nd hand brands carry more risk. The reason you got a discount on your Kioti is due to the inherent risk it carries as a smaller, off brand of tractor.

Not sure exactly what risk I am accepting for discount.

Quality? Proven over 30+ years
Features? Available equal to big K or JD
Value? Superior
Resale? As I mentioned I don’t care but regardless as a PERCENTAGE OF ORIGINAL seems to be basically the same
Distributor network? Agreed. Much smaller. But big enough for me to have 3 dealers within 90 minutes (and probably for many others on this forum)
Spares? Pre COVID not many issues. During COVID I saw problems with everyone. Post COVID kioti looked a bit slower to catch up but appears to have down so now.

I’m not one to say “hey look at me I’m on my mfr’s bandwagon”. I looked and read and visited dealers for 6 months before I bought. I’m trying to let others know that if you are in a similar situation to me that you ought to look at considerations beyond what “old timers” and long term tractor users quote.

It’s a new world out there with new users who need a new look at the whole CUT selection process. Sorry but in MY opinion your post is exactly what I am trying help other newbies realize is based on outdated criteria.

I can’t knock kubota or JD (well I can but that another issue!). But for most new people with small acreage and only general purpose uses, buying to avoid some “risk” is overpaying for what they need

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Kubota 40XX? I'm not familiar with what machines you're speaking of. I know the rest of the L02 line is coming out, and two LX machines as well; what did I miss?

The LX is going up in horsepower this year. The two models offered will be the LX3520 and the LX4020. The updated models are going to destroy JD's E series and most likely take a lot of sales away from the R series as well.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Not sure exactly what risk I am accepting for discount.

Quality? Proven over 30+ years
Features? Available equal to big K or JD
Value? Superior
Resale? As I mentioned I don’t care but regardless as a PERCENTAGE OF ORIGINAL seems to be basically the same
Distributor network? Agreed. Much smaller. But big enough for me to have 3 dealers within 90 minutes (and probably for many others on this forum)
Spares? Pre COVID not many issues. During COVID I saw problems with everyone. Post COVID kioti looked a bit slower to catch up but appears to have down so now.

I have written about this in some other threads. Risk is always the hidden factor when making purchases. You never see it until it's usually too late. Investors train for years to spot it and then learn how to mitigate it.

The biggest risk Kioti carries is forced arbitration clauses in their warranties which essentially takes away your consumer rights. The second is the size and quality of the dealer network, the third is the inability to contact anyone at corporate and the fourth is reports of issues that users/owners have had that Kioti and their dealers were not able to properly diagnose and repair.

To add to #2, Kioti dealers come and go. They may be here today but gone tomorrow and that adds risk for any purchaser. Consumers like investors want stability. They don't want to have to worry if their only dealer in the area is going to close up and go out out business or drop the brand all together.

Another thing is Credit Rating. Kubota and John Deere are rated by the three major credit rating agencies, Daedong and the others are not. If this was real estate and I was leasing property to a Kioti dealer, no bank would offer a non recourse loan on the property because they are not credited. The bank would deny it stating they carry too much risk.

I’m not one to say “hey look at me I’m on my mfr’s bandwagon”. I looked and read and visited dealers for 6 months before I bought. I’m trying to let others know that if you are in a similar situation to me that you ought to look at considerations beyond what “old timers” and long term tractor users quote.

I completely agree with your position about this. I did the same thing. And to be completely fair, Daedong builds a better tractor in some ways then JD or Kubota does. I think Kioti has the best hydraulics in the business. You will not find a better driving and smoother transmission then Kioti in the 40hp and below class. They offer a lot of value and can compete/go toe to toe on a lot of categories with the Big Two but the problem with Daedong is how they want to do business. They lose out in soft value categories which believe it or not, is very important to a lot of buyers.

It’s a new world out there with new users who need a new look at the whole CUT selection process. Sorry but in MY opinion your post is exactly what I am trying help other newbies realize is based on outdated criteria.

Risk is ALWAYS a present factor and will never be "outdated criteria". On the contrary, I am trying to help newbies listen to the voice of reason and not throw caution to the wind like many such as yourself are telling them to do.

 

[DK35vince]

Not sure exactly what risk I am accepting for discount.

Quality? Proven over 30+ years
Features? Available equal to big K or JD
Value? Superior
Resale? As I mentioned I don’t care but regardless as a PERCENTAGE OF ORIGINAL seems to be basically the same
Distributor network? Agreed. Much smaller. But big enough for me to have 3 dealers within 90 minutes (and probably for many others on this forum)
Spares? Pre COVID not many issues. During COVID I saw problems with everyone. Post COVID kioti looked a bit slower to catch up but appears to have down so now.

I’m not one to say “hey look at me I’m on my mfr’s bandwagon”. I looked and read and visited dealers for 6 months before I bought. I’m trying to let others know that if you are in a similar situation to me that you ought to look at considerations beyond what “old timers” and long term tractor users quote.

It’s a new world out there with new users who need a new look at the whole CUT selection process. Sorry but in MY opinion your post is exactly what I am trying help other newbies realize is based on outdated criteria.

I can’t knock kubota or JD (well I can but that another issue!). But for most new people with small acreage and only general purpose uses, buying to avoid some “risk” is overpaying for what they need

I know 2+ decades ago when I was buying my DK 35, I had multiple members saying.
Kioti doesn't hold up
Kioti probably won't be around long
Can't get parts, bla, bla ,bla.
I still own that machine 22 years later and NONE of it was true.
Tractor has been great, still works as nice and smooth as it did new, never been back to a dealer and parts are easy to get.
As far as dealers, I have 5 within 70 miles.

 

[Beeenvenue]

“ I am trying to help newbies listen to the voice of reason and not throw caution to the wind like many such as yourself are telling them to do.”

Not at all. On the other hand, for most hobby farmers or general purpose users your idea of risk is overstated in my opinion. I can handle a great deal of risk because it isn’t my livelihood. Neither is it an investment.

Your post is very well worded but again in my opinion greatly overvalues the investment and therefore risk. It is basically $20-40k tool, not an ira or mutual fund. No I don’t want to lose that much!

I suspect the real answer is a spectrum; I think you are overvaluing risk, you think I am undervaluing risk. Given MY position I am correct. For others they will need to consider those factors and decide how much they are willing to accept.

(I still think that you are overstating the risk as well as overvaluing it, but hopefully all realize these are opinions to consider not facts)

 

[tacticalturnip]

The LX is going up in horsepower this year. The two models offered will be the LX3520 and the LX4020. The updated models are going to destroy JD's E series and most likely take a lot of sales away from the R series as well.

Oh, okay, so I hadn't missed anything. I'm not as familiar with the LX series, but they seem well thought out, and the factory cab is nice. I do, however, know the L02 machines, and they're everything the 3E wishes it was.

 

[tacticalturnip]

I know 2+ decades ago when I was buying my DK 35, I had multiple members saying.
Kioti doesn't hold up
Kioti probably won't be around long
Can't get parts, bla, bla ,bla.
I still own that machine 22 years later and NONE of it was true.
Tractor has been great, still works as nice and smooth as it did new, never been back to a dealer and parts are easy to get.
As far as dealers, I have 5 within 70 miles.

You'll still hear that tripe on the more brand specific forums; it's a bit silly at this point, but it's all the same comments.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

“ I am trying to help newbies listen to the voice of reason and not throw caution to the wind like many such as yourself are telling them to do.”

Not at all. On the other hand, for most hobby farmers or general purpose users your idea of risk is overstated in my opinion. I can handle a great deal of risk because it isn’t my livelihood. Neither is it an investment.

Your post is very well worded but again in my opinion greatly overvalues the investment and therefore risk. It is basically $20-40k tool, not an ira or mutual fund. No I don’t want to lose that much!

I suspect the real answer is a spectrum; I think you are overvaluing risk, you think I am undervaluing risk. Given MY position I am correct. For others they will need to consider those factors and decide how much they are willing to accept.

(I still think that you are overstating the risk as well as overvaluing it, but hopefully all realize these are opinions to consider not facts)

Fair enough. As long as you/they know the risk you/they are taking and are still willing to take it that's all that matters to me. If you/they understand it and you still wish to proceed with that purchase then all is well in my eyes. I will happily celebrate that new purchase with you/them and wish you/them the best wishes for your tractoring days

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I do, however, know the L02 machines, and they're everything the 3E wishes it was.

Agreed. I can confidently state that Deere is not competitive in this segment of the market anymore.

 

[mo1]

These are my opinions. There are tons of newbees getting into CUTs and hobby farms; I think it is time to review some “facts”. At the very least I look at this like PCs now - buy what works for YOU!!

“Never ending ‘add this’”. I was on a budget of $25k in 2019 and made it. Just barely. Cab? Nice to have, would have added $5k or more and weight (see below). More hp? I bought 35; mine was available in 40 (same machine otherwise) for $2k more; couldn’t stay in budget. Weight? Frame? Even more hp. See next comment

“Get as big as you can” aka “get one size bigger than what you think you need”. Not for me. I’m a hobby farmer. With 14 acres of prairie to mow and generally keep up with I chose 35hp hst. The perfect machine for me. Would I like to have more hp? Once in a blue moon when grass gets really high and I have to slow down, but so what? Doesn’t affect loader work. And a bigger frame to allow more loader capacity isn’t really a need either (besides I bought kioti with best in class lift already). An extra hour added to 12 hours of mowing 4-5x/year is negligible. Besides I LIKE riding and using my machine!!

“Non-tractor considerations”

“Truck”. I have a 2005 small block f150. I have no plans or other need to replace it. But I can only pull 6700#. Going larger frame or bigger trailer etc would mean a different truck if I EVER need to pull it

“Trailer”. For me 7k is enough. Sure 10k is nicer. And 14k as well. But also heavier and this impacts total towing weight (see truck comments above) plus more $.

“Dealer importance”. I’ve been back twice in 5 years. Didn’t and don’t care. It’s a hobby farm; I don’t need to rely on my dealer nor build a relationship. My CUT is not used for my livelihood and if I don’t have it for a couple of weeks it is simply an inconvenience not a problem. I bought the best deal and shooed dealers until I got it.

“Resale”. I didn’t and don’t care. Some do. For me I wanted a machine to last for 20 years not to trade out like a car (which I don’t do either). Besides kioti sells (or sold) for 80% of a similar kubota new. Most of them near me sell for 80% of similar kubota used. So yes they resell for less but they cost less up front and retain about the same overall percentage value.

“Weight vs affordability.” I bought the kioti ck3510. Love it. Sure I’d like to have had the dk for more weight and larger frame. But extra $ and extra weight driving me to a bigger trailer for more $ and a new truck for more $

“Don’t buy new, buy used implements”. Have you really looked lately - like in the last 6 months?They aren’t the same prices they were 5 years ago; heck not even the same price as 1 year ago. And availability isn’t good either; people recognize what they have and are hanging onto them, or selling for extra $. It may still be cheaper to buy used but that’s IF you can find it.

“Xxx hasn’t been around as long as JD or Kubota.” So what. For CUTs those names aren’t the same as they were nor the same as their real Ag machines. The one I chose - kioti - has been in the US for more than 30 years; I’ll likely have left my machine to my survivors in 30 years. And EVERY brand has recalls, detractors, supporters, and (especially since 2021) parts issues.

Somebody generally will be unhappy if they need to do a specific job or run a specific implement and their tractor is too small to do it. However, once you get one that's "large enough" there's generally not much of a hard stop on how much larger you can go, so you have to draw the line yourself. The major downside of a tractor that is larger than needed is that maneuverability decreases with increasing machine size. For example, trying to jockey equipment around in a machine shed with a 200 HP machine with rear duals is not much fun compared to doing the same job with a 75 HP unit if the 75 HP unit can do the job.

In general affordability is obtained by only getting the features you actually need versus what you merely want. This is similar to trucks, the base model is going to get as much work done as the Platinum or Denali model but costs half as much. The people making catastrophic comments about physical injury/death or machine damage coming to an operator if they don't get a cabbed MFWD machine with something other than a conventional clutched transmission are also off base too.

Being able to haul a tractor on a trailer was never a consideration for me or anybody else I grew up around as you generally couldn't do it yourself. You roaded a tractor to where you needed it, or had the dealer pick up your broken tractor with their lowboy or two-ton rollback to take it to the shop.

The only thing i can think is when you should go slightly bigger than you think. Is when you build a pole barn. But I agree with you. When I newbie asks about size of tractor for his hobby farm or his 6 acres. Guys are ready to spend your money on what i think is to big of a tractor. Ive always shrugged it off as most people didnt grow up on a farm and haven't been around equipment all there lives. There is only a handful of us out there and thats it.

Generally pole barns don't involve the use of a tractor, it's generally a cat to level the site, a road roller to compact the site, a good-sized skid or track loader with a big old hydraulic rock auger to drill the post holes, and a crane to lift the trusses into place. The type and nature of work done to put up most pole barns is not something most tractors would do very well.

I honestly don't know how JD sells anything. Their 1025r is more $ than my Mahindra 1626. They're both made in Japan. I've used both. There's no way I'd buy a 1025. The 3025 is substantially more than the 1626, I've used one of those too. It's a joke compared to the 1626. You can't even remove the front end loader and these rear end housing is aluminum.

Their gator prices are just as obnoxious.

The Deere equipment I've had has been pretty solid stuff and the parts availability is excellent. Now, I don't have a subcompact, maybe those aren't that great, but at least their ag equipment is pretty decent. I've briefly operated a Gator in the past, but that was a "traditional" Gator like you saw on college and professional sports sidelines rather than the side-by-side Gators they mostly sell now.

 

[edgarrian]

Generally pole barns don't involve the use of a tractor, it's generally a cat to level the site, a road roller to compact the site, a good-sized skid or track loader with a big old hydraulic rock auger to drill the post holes, and a crane to lift the trusses into place. The type and nature of work done to put up most pole barns is not something most tractors would do very well.

You missed the point of what I was saying. When people ask about what size of tractor they should get for their 5 acre property. I see a lot of guys saying get 30 to 40hp tractors. Thats entirely too much. So i think people are better off to not to spend on an oversized tractor and get a third valve and implements. Much more useful way to spend money.

What I was saying with the pole barns is when you think you have the size you want. It doesn't hurt to go another 8ft or 16ft. What most fail to realize is that real estate in the pole barn disappears quickly. As for how to build a pole barn. Ive done pole barn pads with my little tractor but im also a very seasoned operator. I wasn't suggesting building a pole barn with a tractor.

 

[finn1]

You missed the point of what I was saying. When people ask about what size of tractor they should get for their 5 acre property. I see a lot of guys saying get 30 to 40hp tractors. Thats entirely too much. So i think people are better off to not to spend on an oversized tractor and get a third valve and implements. Much more useful way to spend money.

What I was saying with the pole barns is when you think you have the size you want. It doesn't hurt to go another 8ft or 16ft. What most fail to realize is that real estate in the pole barn disappears quickly. As for how to build a pole barn. Ive done pole barn pads with my little tractor but im also a very seasoned operator. I wasn't suggesting building a pole barn with a tractor.

40 hp isn’t all that much when you’re dragging a fully loaded box blade, although traction may be an issue then with a CUT. Snowblower operation can take a lot of power too, and the higher power tractor may have higher road speed, if that’s a factor to you.

The lower power engines with old IDI combustion systems and mechanical fuel systems all have poor cold operation starting and cleanup issues, but if you don’t mind breathing white smoke, that shouldn’t matter to you either.

Not sure, but I think frame size and cab vs open station have a bigger price impact than hp within a given manufacture’s lineup. But then again, who wants to be blowing snow on an open station tractor, or to be working in the summer humidity or even rain, for that matter.

Lots of factors to consider, and no one answer is right for everyone. That’s why manufacturers give us options.

 

[Boss 302]

It's that expensive green paint

 

[rScotty]

I have written about this in some other threads. Risk is always the hidden factor when making purchases. You never see it until it's usually too late. Investors train for years to spot it and then learn how to mitigate it.

The biggest risk Kioti carries is forced arbitration clauses in their warranties which essentially takes away your consumer rights.

SNIP...

Now that is fascinating We hear all the time that a warranty is one of the big reasons people buy new, but I don't believe in all my years on TBN that I've seen a discussion of the difference in warranties. Lots on HP & loader capacity; little on warranty differences.

All I recall about our Kubota warranty is negotiating for an extra year extension then watching it expire without a need to use it. I honestly do not have the slightest idea of what the factory warranty covered or how. My main concern was who would to do any required trailering...

What in the world is forced arbitration? What difference does that make? What should a buyer look for?

rScotty