Minnesota to try and ban gas powered equipment

[Hay Dude]

Im not the country bumpkin you think I am. Talking down to someone is not furthering your point.

Amazing and at the same time so disrespectful how a comment like that is made?
The way people talk down to people who work outside a city, like they’ve never been anywhere. I’m what people like him call a “redneck” or a ”hick”, but I have traveled many parts of the world, own a beautiful home, have a great education and well educated wife & children all contributing positively to the world.
The “Metamucil“ comment speaks for itself.
Once the ad hominem attacks start, you can rest your case.

 

[ddbackhoe]

Funny how it is always us outside the big cities who have to adapt to their dogma, dictates, rules and regs.
We give up our dreams, careers, lifestyles and money so they can pass their very questionable agendas.
Havent seen anyone outside the beltway or the capitals of the states do anything but continue to cut, regulate, tax and burden the very people that feed them, provide their fuel, fix their crap and keep their houses warm, clean and safe.

There’s some real uppity people that are going to be very inconvenienced in ways they never thought possible if we keep going this way a few more years.

Hard for those that depend on your money to increase their lifestyle without taking more out of your pocket.

 

[MossRoad]

...
Its a matter of security, Moss. We aren’t making the critical infrastructure, medicines and electronics we need to survive....

I'll agree with you on that part for the most part.

 

[MossRoad]

I stacked bentonite in rail cars to feed my family when I was young and appreciated the job. Your city boy analogy sucks because there are millions who still do manual labor.

City boy analogy? Where'd you get that? Many of my family worked the line in factories. AM General, Raco, Studebaker, South Bend Toy, Singer Sewing Machines, Bendix, Automatic Molded Plastic and more I can't remember. I can't count the number of years I spent standing in front of newspaper inserting equipment hand loading skid after skid of a couple hundred thousand ads into hoppers a handful at a time every night. So I greatly appreciate manual labor on assembly lines.

There's no way I'd go back to working on assembly line if I had the skills and opportunity to do something else first. Been there, done that. Don't want to go back.

 

[MossRoad]

Good for you. Save me your "Ive been there". Have you ever dug a ditch with a shovel with your hands to put bread on the table? Stop before you embarrass yourself.

No. I didn't dig ditches for money. I hauled bricks with my hands for a mason in high school and first years of college. Built some huge shoulders. I don't want to go back to that job, either.

 

[Hay Dude]

City boy analogy? Where'd you get that? Many of my family worked the line in factories. AM General, Raco, Studebaker, South Bend Toy, Singer Sewing Machines, Bendix, Automatic Molded Plastic and more I can't remember. I can't count the number of years I spent standing in front of newspaper inserting equipment hand loading skid after skid of a couple hundred thousand ads into hoppers a handful at a time every night. So I greatly appreciate manual labor on assembly lines.

There's no way I'd go back to working on assembly line if I had the skills and opportunity to do something else first. Been there, done that. Don't want to go back.

I agree, I wouldn’t either, but does that mean the cities get to decide which industries to drive off shore so our supply chains become more vulnerable to critical and strategic shortages?

I dont know about you, but having the Chinese make chips for everything from cars to machinery sounds like a recipe for disaster during the next war or Covid outbreak. Did we learn anything from Covid other than our news media and some others lied to us?

Time to bring the factories and railroads, pipelines, trucks and good paying jobs and yes, some pollution back home. It’s worth it.

 

[jyoutz]

I agree, I wouldn’t either, but does that mean the cities get to decide which industries to drive off shore so our supply chains become more vulnerable to critical and strategic shortages?

I dont know about you, but having the Chinese make chips for everything from cars to machinery sounds like a recipe for disaster during the next war or outbreak. Did we learn anything from Covid other than our news media and some others lied to us?

I don’t get the notion that cities decide what industries to offshore? Those decisions are made by corporate boards to increase shareholder value.

 

[Hay Dude]

I don’t get the notion that cities decide what industries to offshore? Those decisions are made by corporate boards to increase shareholder value.

Hah! You’re hilarious. Meet up with me in Philly some day. I’ll show you hundreds of companies that used to be here that are nothing more than abandoned buildings crumbling into the Delaware River. Trash, abandoned RR tracks, rusty fences, heck maybe we will find a dead body. Most is attributed to high taxes and regulations started 40-50 years ago.
The corporate boards had enough of high taxes and regulations. They moved south or off shore to get away from them.
CA has lost 70 major companies in the last couple years. They didn’t move offshore. They moved to TX, TN an FL. Why? Lower taxes and less regulations.

Look at cities like Hartford, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Philadelphia, New York, Pittsburgh, Akron, Toledo, Milwaukee, Chicago, etc.
All those cities have high taxes and all their industry left about 40 years ago.

 

[MossRoad]

I agree, I wouldn’t either, but does that mean the cities get to decide which industries to drive off shore so our supply chains become more vulnerable to critical and strategic shortages?

I dont know about you, but having the Chinese make chips for everything from cars to machinery sounds like a recipe for disaster during the next war or outbreak. Did we learn anything from Covid other than our news media and some others lied to us?

If someone could get their hay significantly cheaper from someone else, they would. Unless it's inferior enough for them to not do so. Then they'd stick with you.

There's a "just good enough" equation that drives all of that.

I can make a product that's fantastic. Someone else can make a similar product that's just 'OK'. If my product costs too much, people are gonna go with the just 'OK' product.

It's that pursuit of the last 10-15% of perfection that drives the cost of production up past the point of the consumer's stomach.



The whole issue of national security is another animal. Should any component for war machinery be made outside of the country? Maybe by trusted allies only? Whole nuther subject there.

 

[Hay Dude]

If someone could get their hay significantly cheaper from someone else, they would. Unless it's inferior enough for them to not do so. Then they'd stick with you.

There's a "just good enough" equation that drives all of that.

I can make a product that's fantastic. Someone else can make a similar product that's just 'OK'. If my product costs too much, people are gonna go with the just 'OK' product.

It's that pursuit of the last 10-15% of perfection that drives the cost of production up past the point of the consumer's stomach.



The whole issue of national security is another animal. Should any component for war machinery be made outside of the country? Maybe by trusted allies only? Whole nuther subject there.

Having working cars for the general population, machinery to farm, construction equipment, medicine to cure disease, clothing to wear IS a matter of national security.

If an Ace fighter pilot needs antibiotic and the cure is made in China, or his car wont work and he can’t get to military base because the cars chip is made in China, how can he fly?

Don’t you understand how easily we can be conquered without firing a shot?

 

[jyoutz]

Hah! You’re hilarious. Meet up with me in Philly some day. I’ll show you hundreds of companies that used to be here that are nothing more than abandoned buildings crumbling into the Delaware River. Trash, abandoned RR tracks, rusty fences, heck maybe we will find a dead body. Most is attributed to high taxes and regulations started 40-50 years ago.
The corporate boards had enough of high taxes and regulations. They moved south or off shore to get away from them.
CA has lost 70 major companies in the last couple years. They didn’t move offshore. They moved to TX, TN an FL. Why? Lower taxes and less regulations.

Philly isn’t the entire country. The drive to increase market returns started about 40 years ago as pensions were replaced by 401k accounts. Traditional rates of return were no longer acceptable. As for corporations moving facilities around, they are moving to other cities, not rural areas. A lot of the movement is to right to work states because of union issues. As for the states where these plants are moving to: they aren’t everyone’s idea of paradise. Lots of rampant unregulated development might be financially favorable for the corporate bottom line, but it also changes the lifestyle of those those places. For people like myself who prefer miles of wide open spaces, those places are being ruined as desirable places to live.

 

[MossRoad]

I can account for most of the people that got let go when our jobs got outsourced about 6 years ago. There were about 65 of us.

Anyone near retirement retired.
A few got part time jobs to supplement their SS and savings, but are generally happy.
Anyone 55ish and under that wanted to work go another job pretty quick. A couple took their severance and got retrained and are now working more technical jobs in local factories.
Anyone 55ish and under that didn't want to work lived off of their severance and unemployment for a while, then got jobs on assembly lines in local factories.
I got a job as a handy man and get paid to putter around and fix stuff all day.

Everyone that wanted to work is still working.

 

[MossRoad]

When my grandparents came over on the boats as children, Chicago was the place to go for work as manual laborers. Today, Indiana is the place to go for manual labor. I can't count the number of factories, warehouses, distribution centers, etc., that have popped up here in the last 10-20 years. We lead the nation in steel production, too.

If you want to work anything from manual labor to high tech engineering, come here.

As with my grandparents leaving Europe for a better life in the US, people can leave their locations in the US and find better lives elsewhere in the US. That's just the way it goes.

You have to be able to adapt when you need to. Holding on to the old ways will get you stuck.

 

[Hay Dude]

Philly isn’t the entire country. The drive to increase market returns started about 40 years ago as pensions were replaced by 401k accounts. Traditional rates of return were no longer acceptable. As for corporations moving facilities around, they are moving to other cities, not rural areas. A lot of the movement is to right to work states because of union issues. As for the states where these plants are moving to: they aren’t everyone’s idea of paradise. Lots of rampant unregulated development might be financially favorable for the corporate bottom line, but it also changes the lifestyle of those those places. For people like myself who prefer miles of wide open spaces, those places are being ruined as desirable places to live.

Well I named like 10 other cities inn the rust belt. Want some more?

 

[bnold]

Please keep in mind SOME farmers are NOT on government handouts. Outside of not having to pay state sales tax on farm machinery, I have not received ONE PENNY for farming hay since day one.
Thank you.

I didn’t indicate ALL farmers on government tit, just as I didn’t indicate ALL people receiving various handouts, but there is plenty of it.

The tax issue I’m a bit on the fence for farmers/ranchers/etc… why exempt or reduced from property/purchases I’m not entirely sure. Seems they are being supported in part from other citizens paying tax. (At least in Tx where property tax pays for hospitals, roads, bridges, schools, education)

 

[bnold]

This entire thread is about cities of people deciding how people trying to survive outside the city should live and work. I can tell you I could exist exist exceedingly well without city people and especially them telling me what to do. My customers and client base are all suburban or rural.
I don‘t think the inverse is true.

I think this is pretty short sighted.
Without the economic output of those big cities, the US would crumble and not be our own for very long. No money for big guns, easy target.

 

[IndyJay]

Good for you. Save me your "Ive been there". Have you ever dug a ditch with a shovel with your hands to put bread on the table? Stop before you embarrass yourself.

Too late...

 

[jyoutz]

Well I named like 10 other cities inn the rust belt. Want some more?

Why are you grinding this axe? The economy has changed. The rust belt is declining because companies do like to locate in places with little to no land use regulations. It is cheaper for them to operate there. No question. Those places are also destroying farmland, ranch, and forest lands to facilitate cheap production. Some people are good with that. I prefer some land use regulations and more open spaces. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Hay Dude]

I think this is pretty short sighted.
Without the economic output of those big cities, the US would crumble and not be our own for very long. No money for big guns, easy target.

I’m, not so sure about that. Cities are very dependent on federal aid. I think the cities need us more than we need the cities.

Fun fact: Every family in the United States could live in the Great State of Texas alone and every family would have a 1 acre lot.
Not one other person would need room to live in any of the other 49 states.

 

[Hay Dude]

Why are you grinding this axe? The economy has changed. The rust belt is declining because companies do like to locate in places with little to no land use regulations. It is cheaper for them to operate there. No question. Those places are also destroying farmland, ranch, and forest lands to facilitate cheap production. Some people are good with that. I prefer some land use regulations and more open spaces. Your mileage may vary.

Walk a mile in our shoes. You grind more than an axe….

Great to see you finally recognize regulations as a problem.
Maybe by the end of the discussion, you’ll understand what taxes do to chase industry to off shore locations or more sensible states.