Fighting 'Solar Farm' Installation

[Hay Dude]

I have stayed out of this conversation but feel the need to post this.

I have a 7.5kw solar array on a detached garage that has been producing for 41 months. To build this garage we purchased a 1 acre lot next door to our house. This lot had to be cleared of rubbish and was overgrown with mostly "garbage: trees that were mostly in poor health: intergrown, leaning and hollow and dying. I spent a summer clearing it. (I got my Kubota to get this lot in shape.) About 32 mature trees were removed to clear the lot during this operation.
Later the garage was built and after a time the solar array was completed.

In the 41 month the panels have been making watts it has produced 30 mega-watt-hours of electricity. (Even though this is the middle of the "tundra state" of Minnesota.)
Our electric bill is gone for the year. The 30 MW-Hour figure comes directly from the SolarEdge app that monitors this array.

Here is the important fact:

This production is equivalent to 350 trees planted. (from the app)

So 32 trees were removed and the production equals a small forest.
(We have since planted more trees than we removed.)

Your milage may vary but my math works out for me.

regards to all,

R

I would love to build a pole barn with a huge array of solar panels on top. That would be tremendous.
I just don’t like 100 acres of taxpayer funded solar panels on nice farmland destroying views when we have perfectly good NG in the ground that could be used.

 

[Hay Dude]

There has been a lot of negativity regarding solar, but how about a very positive story.

View attachment 797548

Probably not a bad idea seeing how volatile California’s energy grid has been.

 

[Hay Dude]

The problem is that trees are not forever. They die. Dead trees that are not turned into wood products (and a good part of those that are) rot. When trees rot, micro organisms turn wood and oxygen into energy and CO2. Wood products eventually rot and turn into CO2 as well. Trees only sequester carbon as long as they live. It's a cycle. Carbon in the air goes into trees and then it goes back to the air.

There's also a lot of carbon (dead trees) that's been buried by geologic processes. Nothing can get to it so it is therefore unavailable for the carbon cycle. That's why our CO2 level is not more like what's on Venus where it's 900 degrees and there are rivers of molten metal.

That is until we started removing the safely buried carbon and using it for energy. We're burning enough to change the climate in a way that's small on a geologic time scale but damaging for human civilization. The more of that stuff we leave in the ground, the less climate change we'll see.

The energy from the solar panels (hopefully) replaces some of the energy we'd get from stored carbon where the trees just store carbon temporarily. So the solar panels would be better for climate change than trees.

That may be true, but my concern is can we afford it? Energy prices are way up since 2020.
What about people and businesses that are struggling financially? Do we just leave them unable to afford the green new energy that costs a lot more to produce?

Do we just give a big middle finger to the poor or the less fortunate? Is solar and wind only there for guys who drive Porsches and have ”big money”?

I travel into a lot of states with forgotten people. States like Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania. Many people I meet there have almost given up. They think their country has forgotten them, that they don’t count.

I think that sucks and they should be able to buy energy as cheaply as possible with the NG right under their feet.

 

[bnold]

That may be true, but my concern is can we afford it? Energy prices are way up since 2020.
What about people and businesses that are struggling financially? Do we just leave them unable to afford the green new energy that costs a lot more to produce?

Do we just give a big middle finger to the poor or the less fortunate? Is solar and wind only there for guys who drive Porsches and have ”big money”?

I travel into a lot of states with forgotten people. States like Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania. Many people I meet there have almost given up. They think their country has forgotten them, that they don’t count.

I think that sucks and they should be able to buy energy as cheaply as possible with the NG right under their feet.

Is energy way up since 2020 because of renewables? Or just up with everything else due to overall US economic health?

The energy not produced by personal solar at my house is primarily NG (60+% fossil fuel, 20+% solar/wind). That power has gone up significantly. To add to the pain is paying back the 2021 freeze bankruptcy fiasco where Brazos Coop failed to purchase enough power and we got stuck on the real time wholesale rate. And no, frozen windmills or reduced solar were not the primary culprits for the Tx power issues. Increases in Solar and Wind in Tx is not the reason my rate has increased 50-100% in the past 2 years.

Best path forward for me is probably to increase solar size to buffer myself from the volatility in primarily fossil fuel energy production. At these rates, my ROI stays very reasonable, not that I’d be terribly upset if power went back to 2019, but I don’t see that ever happening.



Good read here, some points I haven’t considered.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brian...able-costs-and-rising-electricity-prices/amp/

 

[turbo36]

That may be true, but my concern is can we afford it? Energy prices are way up since 2020.
What about people and businesses that are struggling financially? Do we just leave them unable to afford the green new energy that costs a lot more to produce?

Do we just give a big middle finger to the poor or the less fortunate? Is solar and wind only there for guys who drive Porsches and have ”big money”?

I travel into a lot of states with forgotten people. States like Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania. Many people I meet there have almost given up. They think their country has forgotten them, that they don’t count.

I think that sucks and they should be able to buy energy as cheaply as possible with the NG right under their feet.

So what do you suggest the government does for the “forgotten people”, pay their mortgages, give them free energy or Jobs for life? Now you’re talking like a left-wing Democrat nut job.
We live in a country where people are free to move around, throughout the history of this country people have moved to new opportunities. I sure hope you sleep at night with all the worrying you’re doing for the poor folks in this world. And by the way, nice jab about the Porsches and big money ha ha, you just can’t let it go of it can you.
Anytime you want to talk about growing up in the deepest poverty I would be happy to share a few stories of my childhood. As the embattered CEO of Herman Miller/Knoll put it so eloquently “you can visit pity city, but you can’t live there “.

 

[lman]

The problem is that trees are not forever. They die. Dead trees that are not turned into wood products (and a good part of those that are) rot. When trees rot, micro organisms turn wood and oxygen into energy and CO2. Wood products eventually rot and turn into CO2 as well. Trees only sequester carbon as long as they live. It's a cycle. Carbon in the air goes into trees and then it goes back to the air.

There's also a lot of carbon (dead trees) that's been buried by geologic processes. Nothing can get to it so it is therefore unavailable for the carbon cycle. That's why our CO2 level is not more like what's on Venus where it's 900 degrees and there are rivers of molten metal.

That is until we started removing the safely buried carbon and using it for energy. We're burning enough to change the climate in a way that's small on a geologic time scale but damaging for human civilization. The more of that stuff we leave in the ground, the less climate change we'll see.

The energy from the solar panels (hopefully) replaces some of the energy we'd get from stored carbon where the trees just store carbon temporarily. So the solar panels would be better for climate change than trees.

The best way to help this struggling planet is to eliminate half of the human population. Will you be a volunteer?

 

[Citydude]

So what do you suggest the government does for the “forgotten people”, pay their mortgages, give them free energy or Jobs for life? Now you’re talking like a left-wing Democrat nut job.
We live in a country where people are free to move around, throughout the history of this country people have moved to new opportunities. I sure hope you sleep at night with all the worrying you’re doing for the poor folks in this world. And by the way, nice jab about the Porsches and big money ha ha, you just can’t let it go of it can you.
Anytime you want to talk about growing up in the deepest poverty I would be happy to share a few stories of my childhood. As the embattered CEO of Herman Miller/Knoll put it so eloquently “you can visit pity city, but you can’t live there “.

Being civil is not in your DNA. The poor are the hardest hit in todays economy.

Some of the wealthy don't care about them until they need their lawn mowed or pool cleaned and whine about how much it costs them.

 

[Hay Dude]

So what do you suggest the government does for the “forgotten people”, pay their mortgages, give them free energy or Jobs for life? Now you’re talking like a left-wing Democrat nut job.
We live in a country where people are free to move around, throughout the history of this country people have moved to new opportunities. I sure hope you sleep at night with all the worrying you’re doing for the poor folks in this world. And by the way, nice jab about the Porsches and big money ha ha, you just can’t let it go of it can you.
Anytime you want to talk about growing up in the deepest poverty I would be happy to share a few stories of my childhood. As the embattered CEO of Herman Miller/Knoll put it so eloquently “you can visit pity city, but you can’t live there “.

I suggest we stop making the cost of energy (electricity & gas) go up and turn this green fantasy around to abundant NG. Maybe have your Fed buddies put away the virtue signaling for a while so poor people can afford electricity to heat their homes and gas to drive to work or pick kids up from school.

These people don’t want your “left-wing nut job“ handouts, they just want affordable energy and not high cost green energy fantasy stuff, like Solyndra.

People with big money, high end cars, etc. just keep virtue signaling while they drive people from a middle class lifestyle into poverty.

 

[Hay Dude]

Is energy way up since 2020 because of renewables? Or just up with everything else due to overall US economic health?

The energy not produced by personal solar at my house is primarily NG (60+% fossil fuel, 20+% solar/wind). That power has gone up significantly. To add to the pain is paying back the 2021 freeze bankruptcy fiasco where Brazos Coop failed to purchase enough power and we got stuck on the real time wholesale rate. And no, frozen windmills or reduced solar were not the primary culprits for the Tx power issues. Increases in Solar and Wind in Tx is not the reason my rate has increased 50-100% in the past 2 years.

Best path forward for me is probably to increase solar size to buffer myself from the volatility in primarily fossil fuel energy production. At these rates, my ROI stays very reasonable, not that I’d be terribly upset if power went back to 2019, but I don’t see that ever happening.



Good read here, some points I haven’t considered.

The Paradox of Declining Renewable Costs and Rising Electricity Prices

With the G________t printing money and adding taxes to the production and distribution of energy, I’d say it’s the last 2+ years is the biggest cause.

I can tell you straight to your face, I was paying a much lower energy bill for my home and business and 1/2 the price for fuel for trucks and farm tractors.

That started a little over 2 years ago.

 

[turbo36]

The best way to help this struggling planet is to eliminate half of the human population. Will you be a volunt

Being civil is not in your DNA. The poor are the hardest hit in todays economy.

Some of the wealthy don't care about them until they need their lawn mowed or pool cleaned and whine about how much it costs them.

well, I’m glad you know so much about my DNA, what else would you like to tell me about myself? I could say all kinds of things about you, but I am holding my tongue.
Civility is reciprocal. When you start being civil, I will be civil. I speak my mind to people that have a passive aggressive approach to civility.

 

[Hay Dude]

The best way to help this struggling planet is to eliminate half of the human population. Will you be a volunteer?

Sorry, but that is the Funniest post EVER!

 

[turbo36]

I suggest we stop making the cost of energy (electricity & gas) go up and turn this green fantasy around to abundant NG. Maybe have your Fed buddies put away the virtue signaling for a while so poor people can afford electricity to heat their homes and gas to drive to work or pick kids up from school.

These people don’t want your “left-wing nut job“ handouts, they just want affordable energy and not high cost green energy fantasy stuff, like Solyndra.

People with big money, high end cars, etc. just keep virtue signaling while they drive people from a middle class lifestyle into poverty.

You seem to not understand that the increase in energy cost is not all due to the “green energy program “it hasn’t been going on long enough to affect the overall energy cost. Most of the increase in energy costs because the companies that control the energy have the capacity to raise prices right now.
Do you want a country where the government controls energy prices? I think Russia does that don’t they?

So tell me how I am driving people from middle class lifestyle? My company paid high wages, and my employees enjoyed all the benefits of good housing, cars, sending thier kids to college. It is disingenuous of you to lump everyone with money into the same big pot.

 

[Hay Dude]

You seem to not understand that the increase in energy cost is not all due to the “green energy program “it hasn’t been going on long enough to affect the overall energy cost. Most of the increase in energy costs because the companies that control the energy have the capacity to raise prices right now.
Do you want a country where the government controls energy prices? I think Russia does that don’t they?

So tell me how I am driving people from middle class lifestyle? My company paid high wages, and my employees enjoyed all the benefits of good housing, cars, sending thier kids to college. It is disingenuous of you to lump everyone with money into the same big pot.

I didn’t say you were. I said the G_______t and to a lesser degree the supporters of their agenda ARE.
And BTW, I am VERY aware of “why” energy prices are increasing. I don’t need any of your opinions to change my mind.

 

[bnold]

With the G________t printing money and adding taxes to the production and distribution of energy, I’d say it’s the last 2+ years is the biggest cause.

I can tell you straight to your face, I was paying a much lower energy bill for my home and business and 1/2 the price for fuel for trucks and farm tractors.

That started a little over 2 years ago.

I’d agree with the major cause being political/economic/scare COVID based and to a much much smaller fractional degree the push to ‘green’ energy. The ‘green’ push just couldn’t have the kind of impact we have all witnessed over the past 2 years alone.

But, yup nearly double in fuel and about 50% in electricity cost.

Amazingly, we are still cheap compared to some of the world.

 

[bnold]

People with big money, high end cars, etc. just keep virtue signaling while they drive people from a middle class lifestyle into poverty.

This is a stretch.

Virtue Signaling is a cool buzz phrase though.

No doubt the rich want to keep getting richer, money makes money.

Im a big believer in choices.

Not casting a wide stroke as it doesn’t fit every situation, but I believe many are content scratching but, cashing their check, buying a 30 pack of beer and carton of cigarettes every weekend, and whatever their activity may be. A choice could be to push off frivolous spending and find ways to get out of the situation they are in. Evening trade school, online learning, tech, whatever. Plenty of examples of those who committed to change being very successful. Truly admirable.

Others want to have 8 kids, WIC, Medicaid, gov phone, gov housing, ‘disability’, etc. That is a choice as well. We don’t get a choice but to support their lifestyle via taxes.

Unless we want to go to a straight socialistic society, there will always be those with different income levels.

The track the country is on, those who wish to be given more and not work for more are more populous and will continue to vote for more free handouts and shiny things. These decisions will continue to grow the divide.

 

[jyoutz]

I suggest we stop making the cost of energy (electricity & gas) go up and turn this green fantasy around to abundant NG. Maybe have your Fed buddies put away the virtue signaling for a while so poor people can afford electricity to heat their homes and gas to drive to work or pick kids up from school.

These people don’t want your “left-wing nut job“ handouts, they just want affordable energy and not high cost green energy fantasy stuff, like Solyndra.

People with big money, high end cars, etc. just keep virtue signaling while they drive people from a middle class lifestyle into poverty.

Your basic premise is about 10-20 years behind the times. Solar and wind energy is cheaper to produce nowadays than most other fuels. The economics has become very favorable over the past 20 years.

 

[Fixastuff]

I didn’t say you were. I said the G_______t and to a lesser degree the supporters of their agenda ARE.
And BTW, I am VERY aware of “why” energy prices are increasing. I don’t need any of your opinions to change my mind.

My electric bill was $125 last month, heat pump heat/ac, well and septic lift pump. It has been the same for last 15years except for differences throughout the year depending on how hot or cold it is outside. Your energy costs may be increasing but that doesn't mean everyone's are. I think being in an electric co-op might help vs corporation provider.

 

[jyoutz]

My electric bill was $125 last month, heat pump heat/ac, well and septic lift pump. It has been the same for last 15years except for differences throughout the year depending on how hot or cold it is outside. Your energy costs may be increasing but that doesn't mean everyone's are. I think being in an electric co-op might help vs corporation provider.

My electric bill has been fairly constant as well for the past 18 years. $150/month, most of which is attributable to the deep well pump and 3 large freezers. I’m also on an electric co-op.

 

[MossRoad]

I know several folks that are in co-ops for electric, propane, and internet access. All of them are very happy with them.

 

[Citydude]

well, I’m glad you know so much about my DNA, what else would you like to tell me about myself? I could say all kinds of things about you, but I am holding my tongue.
Civility is reciprocal. When you start being civil, I will be civil. I speak my mind to people that have a passive aggressive approach to civility.

Anger issues? Lol