Solar Farm #2, dangers involved.

[RSKY]

Whoopsie Daisies!

The problem isn't the broken panels. The problem is the toxic mess that leaked out of the panels in the rain after they were broke. It goes onto the ground and into streams.

 

[RSKY]

I didn't follow (or perhaps understand LOL) the entire thread from start to finish, but can the state supersede what your county determines?

If the answer is no, your county commissioners should have enough common sense to agree with you. If the answer is yes, going to the state level for something is never fun.

The state has a regulation KRS 278.704 which states that energy manufacturing facilities must be 1000' from property lines. This distance can be lowered by the counties by a county ordinance. But it cannot be increased. The county government has already been sued and lost over this when they tried to increase the distance for a hog production barn. BUT there is also a state 'Siting Board' which can overrule both. This is made up of three bureaucrats from state government, the county judge executive (chief executive officer in KY counties) and one other person from the county. They will make the final decision. Our research shows that this 'Siting Board' always goes with the county ordinance if there is one. So we are leaning on the county government to pass an ordinance than copies the state law.

Greengo, the solar company building the facility, states over and over in their literature that $18 million will come into the county over twenty years from the building of the facility. What they do not say is that the money goes to three families and the decrease in property value of the properties adjoining the facility will nearly equal that amount. Not counting the cost to the county for destroyed roads, fire department upgrades, etc.

 

[MossRoad]

The state has a regulation KRS 278.704 which states that energy manufacturing facilities must be 1000' from property lines. This distance can be lowered by the counties by a county ordinance. But it cannot be increased. The county government has already been sued and lost over this when they tried to increase the distance for a hog production barn. BUT there is also a state 'Siting Board' which can overrule both. This is made up of three bureaucrats from state government, the county judge executive (chief executive officer in KY counties) and one other person from the county. They will make the final decision. Our research shows that this 'Siting Board' always goes with the county ordinance if there is one. So we are leaning on the county government to pass an ordinance than copies the state law.

Greengo, the solar company building the facility, states over and over in their literature that $18 million will come into the county over twenty years from the building of the facility. What they do not say is that the money goes to three families and the decrease in property value of the properties adjoining the facility will nearly equal that amount. Not counting the cost to the county for destroyed roads, fire department upgrades, etc.

How is a solar farm going to destroy road? During the construction? Around here, any project that damages roads or is projected to damage roads during construction has to pay to have the roads put back in like condition once the construction phase is finished. That should all be written into the deal.

And just like gravel pits, landfills, etc., that continuously damage the roads, they have to continuously pay to have them repaired. That's basic stuff.

The three families you've mentioned own the land. They're the only ones making profit off of it if it's corn, soybeans, timber, cattle, or solar panels anyway.

They're also the ones that'll be on the hook for any environmental damages downstream if anything leaves their property, be it manure runoff, AG chemical runoff, soil erosion, etc.

They could just as easily put in hogs right up to the property line or sell it for housing developments.

Those are the hazards of living in rural areas outside of zoned communities where there might be little to no code or code enforcement.

I know this, because I live outside of a city, in the county, where up until last year, there was no code enforcement. I could (and did) have a dilapidated truck sitting in the back of my yard for years. The neighbors didn't mow their lawn for years. Furniture piled up on front porches, dead cars in front yards, piles of junk and yard debris abound. All that drives down others' property values as well.

We have acreage about 9 miles away. It's zoned AG with residential exception. So, I pay AG taxes on it until we improve it with a house. At any give time, someone could open a gravel pit, a livestock farm, a confined feeding operation, a junkyard, etc, right next door.

Again, those are the hazards of living in an area with little to no zoning/code.

 

[Sigarms]

The state has a regulation KRS 278.704 which states that energy manufacturing facilities must be 1000' from property lines. This distance can be lowered by the counties by a county ordinance. But it cannot be increased. The county government has already been sued and lost over this when they tried to increase the distance for a hog production barn. BUT there is also a state 'Siting Board' which can overrule both. This is made up of three bureaucrats from state government, the county judge executive (chief executive officer in KY counties) and one other person from the county. They will make the final decision. Our research shows that this 'Siting Board' always goes with the county ordinance if there is one. So we are leaning on the county government to pass an ordinance than copies the state law.

Honestly, I think you're good. If the "Sitting board" goes with the county ordinance (generally made by people who live in the same area as you do), I honestly don't see a problem as those you live with make the county ordinances.

The only way they couldn't use common sense is if money is coming into the county elsewhere from this solar panel company.

 

[Sigarms]

Those are the hazards of living in rural areas outside of zoned communities where there might be little to no code or code enforcement.

We all don't like code enforcement because it can become hades with stupid rules that defy common sense, but sometimes people who can use common sense can be a good thing.

I'm looking at doing a deck replacement I can't do myself. I've been asked if I'm going to pull a permit. The answer is no, but if you feel a code is good to go by, I'd like to know why you want to do it that way. It helps me to understand better. It's no different than my own line of work when I do know how things should be done the right way.

 

[JJT]

The problem isn't the broken panels. The problem is the toxic mess that leaked out of the panels in the rain after they were broke. It goes onto the ground and into streams.

Sorry Rsky, there are no toxic liquids inside a solar panel. That's a BIG TIME misconception.

Yes there are heavy metals in solar panels in solid form. They do not contain liquids that can leak.

The amount of “chemicals” in solar panels is miniscule. For example, a typical solar panel has about half the amount of lead (used as solder) as a single shotgun shell. A single car battery has more lead than 700 solar panels.

I guess we need to ban shotgun shells and lead acid batteries.

If you are worried about things leaking into the ground and streams lets start with manure, fertilizer and pesticides.

 

[Sigarms]

Sorry Rsky, there are no toxic liquids inside a solar panel. That's a BIG TIME misconception.

Yes there are heavy metals in solar panels in solid form. They do not contain liquids that can leak.

The amount of “chemicals” in solar panels is miniscule. For example, a typical solar panel has about half the amount of lead (used as solder) as a single shotgun shell. A single car battery has more lead than 700 solar panels.

I guess we need to ban shotgun shells and lead acid batteries.

If you are worried about things leaking into the ground and streams lets start with manure, fertilizer and pesticides.

I think the biggest issue is after time removing the solar panels which California is now stuck dealing with after 15-20years.

My line of work is HVAC. The reality is California ****'s the HVAC industry. You don't know how many issues per federal guidelines are dictated by California per the HVAC industry to require all 50 states to follow over time.

No different that electric car batteries.

Sooner or later you have to pay the piper...

Novel idea... Get rid of government subsidies. Don't know how that would affect the farmers, but when it comes to energy usage, it's nothing more than how much you pay your lobbyist from big business.

 

[two_bit_score]

Once you let the camel get its nose under the tent......

An old saying that has proved true on many occasions!

 

[two_bit_score]

Funny how they environmentalists used to cry like stuck pigs when the amazon rain forests were cut down or the coral reefs in the oceans were threatened or when whalers killed whales, but are eerily silent when all those species are destroyed for windmills and solar panels, huh?

It’s the new crusade of the moment.

 

[turbo36]

I think the biggest issue is after time removing the solar panels which California is now stuck dealing with after 15-20years.

My line of work is HVAC. The reality is California ****'s the HVAC industry. You don't know how many issues per federal guidelines are dictated by California per the HVAC industry to require all 50 states to follow over time.

No different that electric car batteries.

Sooner or later you have to pay the piper...

Novel idea... Get rid of government subsidies. Don't know how that would affect the farmers, but when it comes to energy usage, it's nothing more than how much you pay your lobbyist from big business.

If you got rid of government subsidies to the farmers, there would be a financial collapse of the economy that would be equivalent to the great depression.

 

[5030]

Farmers subsidies are at least as big as welfare and public assistance, maybe bigger. Problem is, when the government becomes insolvent (and it will), all that ends.

 

[bnold]

The state has a regulation KRS 278.704 which states that energy manufacturing facilities must be 1000' from property lines. This distance can be lowered by the counties by a county ordinance. But it cannot be increased. The county government has already been sued and lost over this when they tried to increase the distance for a hog production barn. BUT there is also a state 'Siting Board' which can overrule both. This is made up of three bureaucrats from state government, the county judge executive (chief executive officer in KY counties) and one other person from the county. They will make the final decision. Our research shows that this 'Siting Board' always goes with the county ordinance if there is one. So we are leaning on the county government to pass an ordinance than copies the state law.

Greengo, the solar company building the facility, states over and over in their literature that $18 million will come into the county over twenty years from the building of the facility. What they do not say is that the money goes to three families and the decrease in property value of the properties adjoining the facility will nearly equal that amount. Not counting the cost to the county for destroyed roads, fire department upgrades, etc.

Should be taxes going to the county as well. That is why the government is interested, increased tax revenue. The $18M they cite is probably the county share. How many houses are boarding this solar farm that $18M in depreciation is likely?

Fire department upgrades, what are they planning to upgrade?

 

[bnold]

If you got rid of government subsidies to the farmers, there would be a financial collapse of the economy that would be equivalent to the great depression.

Wouldn’t it be a shame for businesses to stand on their own?

 

[5030]

Dirt farmers aren't as ignorant as one might think they are. Between gummit subsidies and crop insurance, it's pretty hard to go down the toilet today I've always found it somewhat arcane that they can actually insure a new planted crop for more than it's worth and collect on it if it don't germinate. All that new equipment didn't come from the tooth fairy either. When I read the thread bout 'New Tractor Sales are in the Tank, I chuckle. Maybe the homeowner compact tractor market is but ag tractors certainly are not. The over 100 pto power market is brisk and will stay that way so long as the government and insurers keep paying.

 

[RSKY]

How is a solar farm going to destroy road? During the construction? Around here, any project that damages roads or is projected to damage roads during construction has to pay to have the roads put back in like condition once the construction phase is finished. That should all be written into the deal.

And just like gravel pits, landfills, etc., that continuously damage the roads, they have to continuously pay to have them repaired. That's basic stuff.

The three families you've mentioned own the land. They're the only ones making profit off of it if it's corn, soybeans, timber, cattle, or solar panels anyway.

They're also the ones that'll be on the hook for any environmental damages downstream if anything leaves their property, be it manure runoff, AG chemical runoff, soil erosion, etc.

They could just as easily put in hogs right up to the property line or sell it for housing developments.

Those are the hazards of living in rural areas outside of zoned communities where there might be little to no code or code enforcement.

I know this, because I live outside of a city, in the county, where up until last year, there was no code enforcement. I could (and did) have a dilapidated truck sitting in the back of my yard for years. The neighbors didn't mow their lawn for years. Furniture piled up on front porches, dead cars in front yards, piles of junk and yard debris abound. All that drives down others' property values as well.

We have acreage about 9 miles away. It's zoned AG with residential exception. So, I pay AG taxes on it until we improve it with a house. At any give time, someone could open a gravel pit, a livestock farm, a confined feeding operation, a junkyard, etc, right next door.

Again, those are the hazards of living in an area with little to no zoning/code.

During the meeting that I attended the guy from Greenco said that there would not be any road damage. At least no more than the farms grain trucks, tractors, etc. But when some of the neighbors visited the 80-acre site an hour or so drive away they said the roads were pulverized to pieces.

The three families are already catching flack from their extended family. The largest landowner's brother and nephews farm his land and they will loose about 40% of the land three families depend on for row crop income. The panels on the property behind my daughter's house will prevent access to more than half of their tillable land. The family that has farmed that field for twenty+ years had also farmed the land behind them and it is being changed to solar panels. It is a minuscule 15-acres or so but the only way the renter will be able to get to it is thru their yard. A larger sewer and drive will have to be installed. A lot of trees will have to be removed. Garden location will have to be changed. And I hope he can get by the pond. You get the idea. So in addition to lowering the property values, taking income away from family and neighbors, and environmental damage, many of the neighbors will have to spend a lot of their cash accommodating the facility.

I hope the landowners are on the hook for environmental damages downstream. The id10ts who built the city's independent school district's new elementary school built it on a "100 year flood plain" of the Mayfield Creek. In the 18 years since the school has been flooded by hundred year floods twice. Cost of $250.000+ the second time so my source told me. Clearcutting an area 2 miles by 1 mile at the creeks head 8 miles from the school is gonna cause serious problems.

And you touched on the main item that the neighbors are upset about. Hog and chicken farms, by state law, must be 1000' from property lines. Energy producing facilities also must be 1000' from the property lines. Everybody would accept this. They want to change this to 300' from the residence. That will not be acceptable.

 

[RSKY]

Sorry Rsky, there are no toxic liquids inside a solar panel. That's a BIG TIME misconception.

Yes there are heavy metals in solar panels in solid form. They do not contain liquids that can leak.

The amount of “chemicals” in solar panels is miniscule. For example, a typical solar panel has about half the amount of lead (used as solder) as a single shotgun shell. A single car battery has more lead than 700 solar panels.

I guess we need to ban shotgun shells and lead acid batteries.

If you are worried about things leaking into the ground and streams lets start with manure, fertilizer and pesticides.

Yep, we are worried about pesticides. Also, the environmental people some members have talked to differed from your opinion. The environmental engineer I talked to said the manufacturing facility she worked at planned to install several acres of panels but stopped the plan when they found out how "nasty" they were. Those were her words not mine.

• According to Bureau of Labor Statistics, statistics for acceptable construction errors for solar, wind, geothermal, biomass, and other electric power generation are ~5.3%. So, conservatively 5.3% of the 270,000 panels Greengo said Banjo Creek would have is approximately 14,310 panels that should be expected to be defective from the factory. Defective panels leach lead arsenic and cadmium into the ground, classifying them as Hazardous Waste as defined by the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA).
• Sources:
• BLS: All Employees Standard Error Tables /

Leaching: End-of-Life Solar Panels: Regulations and Management | US EPA.

 

[RSKY]

Should be taxes going to the county as well. That is why the government is interested, increased tax revenue. The $18M they cite is probably the county share. How many houses are boarding this solar farm that $18M in depreciation is likely?

Fire department upgrades, what are they planning to upgrade?

Once again, the $18M will be paid to three families over twenty years. $750/acre with a 1% increase every year. The county will receive nothing from the facility. As a matter of fact they will probably loose some property tax revenue when the property is reclassed. The county commissioners were hazy on this. Were struggling to find out for sure. We do know that a smaller solar facility in another very small county nearby had the school superintendent livid because the change in classification of the land dropped the amount of property taxes the school board received.

As for the fire department upgrades I don't know what that will be. The problem is the shipping container sized lithium ion batteries modules sometimes have problems. The county fire protection is by volunteer fire departments only. All they have is basic equipment and water pumpers. My other son in law is a supervisor at a local city's fire department and his second job is training volunteer fire departments all around the area. He said the thought of a massive lithium ion battery fire scared him. And his advice would be to get upwind and run like the dickens. They don't burn so much as explode. It takes specialized equipment with something like an airport foam truck or, as he said, a CO2 extinguisher that fits on the back of a tandem axle truck. Their procedure for small lithium ion batteries is to put them in a container of water for a week or more until safe to handle.

• According to NFPA 1720, volunteer fire departments should have the capability to safely begin attacking the fire within two minutes once firefighters arrive at the scene with all the equipment they need to fight it, at least 90% of the time.
• Source:
• National Fire Protection Association: Battery Energy Storage Hazards and Failure Modes | NFPA | NFPA
• Battery fires: three fires in Arizona and an explosion that injured 8 firefighters. Another instance in California that caused residents to shelter in place for 12 hours :
• Source:
• Illinois Policy: Big batteries to store renewable energy create fire hazard
• Battery Issues: thermal runaway, off gassing, stranded energy, thermal/electrical/mechanical abuse, internal faults, and environmental impacts.
• Source:
• National Fire Protection Association: Battery Energy Storage Hazards and Failure Modes | NFPA | NFPA
• Battery hazards, especially in earthquake prone areas.
• Source:
• ACS Publications: Battery Energy Storage Hazards and Failure Modes | NFPA | NFPA

 

[Hay Dude]

Wouldn’t it be a shame for businesses to stand on their own?

Solar companies couldn’t survive 5 minutes without taxpayer subsidies.

 

[bnold]

Solar companies couldn’t survive 5 minutes without taxpayer subsidies.

That hasn’t been true for a number of years now for solar or wind.

You can pick specific instances where it is, where solar and wind are installed in low production areas and the math still works due to subsidies. But many solar/wind farms can absolutely stand on their own without the subsidies.

 

[bnold]

Once again, the $18M will be paid to three families over twenty years. $750/acre with a 1% increase every year. The county will receive nothing from the facility. As a matter of fact they will probably loose some property tax revenue when the property is reclassed. The county commissioners were hazy on this. Were struggling to find out for sure. We do know that a smaller solar facility in another very small county nearby had the school superintendent livid because the change in classification of the land dropped the amount of property taxes the school board received.

How do your counties generate income?

Here it is largely property tax, business personal property tax and sales tax

Solar farms generate additional taxes on property value and business personal property tax.

There are concessions generally negotiated (as with all large commercial projects) and exemptions but still a significant tax increase for our area.

The most recent installation in my county is projected to dump an additional $20M in tax revenue over the next 10 years… compared to the $18k the farm land was generating (in strictly property tax)

About 2.3M for the county, 2.7 for the county hospital district, 1.5 in county road and bridge, 7.3 for emergency district, etc.

The local tiny school district will see an additional 2.3M the 1st year.


Hard for this tiny farm community to turn down such income. The county commissioners are largely ‘in charge’.

A side benefit is the hotels and restaurants are sure enjoying the business of the traveling construction crews.