Tc35d ran out of diesel uphill

[AnneReynolds]

At this point, we now have several factors going on and we don’t know which are most important. The fuel gauge never goes below a quarter tank. So he has once again run out of fuel. It happens every two years or so. we know how to bleed the system. I have changed the fuel cut off solenoid three times on this 2001 tc35d. So, when we were not able to bleed it, I thought, perhaps the solenoid was the culprit once again. I removed the solenoid. That would eliminate any solenoid issue. I found before that with the solenoid out, it will start, we just can’t kill the tractor, unless by running it out of diesel.
So, with the solenoid out, and the fuel filter bowl full, we attempted to bleed the fuel lines. No success.
I put the solenoid back in. However, and this is strange, it would not tighten. I had perfectly lined it up, put it in the hole and perfectly threaded it. No cross threading— definitely screwed in. But, it still continues to turn freely. I cannot pull it out. I can’t wiggle it. It just keeps screwing. I put the wire back on it and left it that way. I know 100% It is threaded correctly and was exactly straight in the hole.
I now understand it is gravity feed from the tank to the bowl
I removed the incoming fuel line and lowered it and diesel shot out. I put it back together.
But it still won’t bleed.

If anyone has helpful information, I’d love to have it. But the question I have is, if the solenoid is not all the way tight, is it going to leak fuel or leak air into the system? Or does the little pin just engage or disengage without piercing the flow?
We’ve had this tractor for 22 years and this is just not working like it normally does. I think it’s because we are uphill. Not steep.
Thank you in advance.
Anne

 

[5030]

All it does is act on the fuel pump rack and if it won't shut off, I suggest taking a wooden flat board and putting it over the air intake. That will shut it off. No air, no combustion.

Detroit Diesel did that with their 2 stroke engines. There was a metal flapper on top the blower housing and you pulled the emergency stop and it was all stop, right now.

 

[AnneReynolds]

All it does is act on the fuel pump rack and if it won't shut off, I suggest taking a wooden flat board and putting it over the air intake. That will shut it off. No air, no combustion.

Detroit Diesel did that with their 2 stroke engines. There was a metal flapper on top the blower housing and you pulled the emergency stop and it was all stop, right now.

Thank you for that. We may end up taking the solenoid back out to further illuminate it from the situation. Now, I’m back out at the tractor. I think we have everything ideal, except the solenoid is still in it. It will not bleed anywhere. I guess the next step is taking the solenoid back out.

 

[Harry in Ky]

The solenoid may well have some problems, but leaking fuel out or air in will not be one of them. It doesn't actually connect to any fuel passages. It merely pushes against a part of the pump that runs in engine oil. If it leaks anything it would be motor oil, and not much of that. Also, it has no effect on bleeding the fuel system UP TO the injection pump. It does however, affect fuel being delivered from the pump to the injectors. You didn't specify which portions of the system you have trouble bleeding right now.

I've had a number of those solenoids out and in over the years, for various reasons and have replaced very few of them. In your case I would suggest you remove the wire from the coil, and try touching and removing a jumper wire with battery positive voltage to the exposed spade terminal. When you do that you should both hear and feel the solenoid click. That would be a good sign that it's still working. Doing it with a jumper wire eliminates any other sounds involved with turning the key on and off.

From what you described, I think there's a good chance the solenoid may indeed be bad now, even if it wasn't when all this started. Reason I say that is I have never seen one fail as you say this one has. I wonder if the shell around the coil may have come loose from the unit, and is now just spinning without the rest of the unit turning as well. If that's the case, then the wire inside has probably twisted off and may no longer be carrying power from the external spade to the coil inside. I've never seen one do that, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

If you check it and it fails the test, then plan on replacing it, and just do what you need to do to crush the thing with large pliers or whatever and try to get the unit to unscrew. Somehow I doubt the threads in the engine block are damaged.

 

[AnneReynolds]

Thank you for that. We may end up taking the solenoid back out to further illuminate it from the situation. Now, I’m back out at the tractor. I think we have everything ideal, except the solenoid is still in it. It will not bleed anywhere. I guess the next step is taking the solenoid back out.

All it does is act on the fuel pump rack and if it won't shut off, I suggest taking a wooden flat board and putting it over the air intake. That will shut it off. No air, no combustion.

Detroit Diesel did that with their 2 stroke engines. There was a metal flapper on top the blower housing and you pulled the emergency stop and it was all stop, right now.

Solenoid is out. It appears to be messed up because the casing on it turns and the threads are stationary if I hold them between my fingers. I’ll be ordering a new solenoid.
Meanwhile, the fuel is flowing to the bowl, the solenoid is out. The transfer pump is merely mechanical and the engine is turning over just fine. The fuel switch is turned on. We tried once again to bleed at the main bleed Screw – nothing. The third fuel injector nut is the easiest to open up to bleed the injector. Nothing happening there. The other two 5/16 nuts are so close together. I haven’t gotten them loose yet.
Is there hope?

 

[AnneReynolds]

The solenoid may well have some problems, but leaking fuel out or air in will not be one of them. It doesn't actually connect to any fuel passages. It merely pushes against a part of the pump that runs in engine oil. If it leaks anything it would be motor oil, and not much of that. Also, it has no effect on bleeding the fuel system UP TO the injection pump. It does however, affect fuel being delivered from the pump to the injectors. You didn't specify which portions of the system you have trouble bleeding right now.

I've had a number of those solenoids out and in over the years, for various reasons and have replaced very few of them. In your case I would suggest you remove the wire from the coil, and try touching and removing a jumper wire with battery positive voltage to the exposed spade terminal. When you do that you should both hear and feel the solenoid click. That would be a good sign that it's still working. Doing it with a jumper wire eliminates any other sounds involved with turning the key on and off.

From what you described, I think there's a good chance the solenoid may indeed be bad now, even if it wasn't when all this started. Reason I say that is I have never seen one fail as you say this one has. I wonder if the shell around the coil may have come loose from the unit, and is now just spinning without the rest of the unit turning as well. If that's the case, then the wire inside has probably twisted off and may no longer be carrying power from the external spade to the coil inside. I've never seen one do that, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

If you check it and it fails the test, then plan on replacing it, and just do what you need to do to crush the thing with large pliers or whatever and try to get the unit to unscrew. Somehow I doubt the threads in the engine block are damaged.

 

[AnneReynolds]

Got bubbles from #1 injector —nearest to driver. Need to charge battery. We have some hope. Going to go in for a break. #2 and #3 are loose. Ready for us when it cools off. I’m ordering solenoid.

 

[nyone]

When bleeding any diesel fuel system you need to start close to the tank like you did.. in this case then move to the outlet of the lift pump, then the outlet of the high pressure pump and crack all the lines not just 1.

Once you get air in the system you can get a air lock so it may take a while to bleede the system.

 

[dieselscout80]

Also when you are doing this make sure all safety systems are in the proper position for starting.

I forgot to set the parking brake when mine ran out of fuel and it wouldn’t prime or start again until I engaged the parking brake.

 

[DieselMonk]

I think so too that the problem with the solenoid is actually ends up being something dumb, like a safety switch for the seat, PTO, brake or whatever. With the solenoid in and any of them safety devices being active, there is no bleeding going on.
Problematic it becomes if the levers all indicate proper position, but jet the safety mechanism stays engaged. All you and do there is to find them and repair, or defeat them.
Don’t these tractors have a lift pump that starts pumping fuel to the injector pump as soon as you turn the key?

 

[AnneReynolds]

I think so too that the problem with the solenoid is actually ends up being something dumb, like a safety switch for the seat, PTO, brake or whatever. With the solenoid in and any of them safety devices being active, there is no bleeding going on.
Problematic it becomes if the levers all indicate proper position, but jet the safety mechanism stays engaged. All you and do there is to find them and repair, or defeat them.
Don’t these tractors have a lift pump that starts pumping fuel to the injector pump as soon as you turn the key?

Good news is we have bypassed (hardwired) all safeties years ago. Best thing we ever did. We have the new solenoid in. Tank is full. Good gravity fuel flow. I think we have an air lock. Have cracked open all 3 injector manifold “nuts” to bleed. Imperceptible fuel flow—bubbles? Nothing out of bleed screw. Engine makes no attempt to fire. Cranks strong. Battery on charger.

 

[AnneReynolds]

I think so too that the problem with the solenoid is actually ends up being something dumb, like a safety switch for the seat, PTO, brake or whatever. With the solenoid in and any of them safety devices being active, there is no bleeding going on.
Problematic it becomes if the levers all indicate proper position, but jet the safety mechanism stays engaged. All you and do there is to find them and repair, or defeat them.
Don’t these tractors have a lift pump that starts pumping fuel to the injector pump as soon as you turn the key?

Good news is we have bypassed (hardwired) all safeties years ago. Best thing we ever did. We have the new solenoid in. Tank is full. Good gravity fuel flow. I think we have an air lock. Have cracked open all 3 injector manifold “nuts” to bleed. Imperceptible fuel flow—bubbles? Nothing out of bleed screw. Engine makes no attempt to fire. Cranks strong. Battery on charger.

 

[AnneReynolds]

When bleeding any diesel fuel system you need to start close to the tank like you did.. in this case then move to the outlet of the lift pump, then the outlet of the high pressure pump and crack all the lines not just 1.

Once you get air in the system you can get a air lock so it may take a while to bleede the system.

Good news is we have bypassed (hardwired) all safeties years ago. Best thing we ever did. We have the new solenoid in. Tank is full. Good gravity fuel flow. I think we have an air lock. Have cracked open all 3 injector manifold “nuts” to bleed. Imperceptible fuel flow—bubbles? Nothing out of bleed screw. Engine makes no attempt to fire. Cranks strong. Battery on charger.

 

[DieselMonk]

While bleeding you do have the throttle position on full bore, right?

 

[AnneReynolds]

While bleeding you do have the throttle position on full bore, right?

Yes, since reading that recommendation. We are thinking the air is trapped in the fuel transfer pump that operates mechanically when the engine turns. It has two fuel lines attached. I know fuel is flowing in the input line(prior to reattaching it). We have strong gravity flow since the tractor is not drastically uphill and the tank is full. The lines in/out of the pump are inaccessible with the fuel filter in place. Maybe we take the “out” line loose and try to suck it with something while cranking. We will try that.

 

[DieselMonk]

Crack only one injector at a time and crank until fuel comes out the nut.

 

[AnneReynolds]

Neighbor came over army mechanic. Shot in ether. Fired up. Leak in steel line near bleeder screw area. Ran until we backed off throttle. At least now we know the real problem. Not sure how running out of diesel compounded into this. Thank you for help and caring.
Anne

 

[etpm]

Greetings Anne,
I don't know about your particular tractor but for some diesel engines ether can cause stuff to break. I have been told by many folks to never use ether in my Yanmar YM2310 because it could cause the piston rings to break. So you may want to be careful about using any more ether. Your neighbor, being a mechanic, probably knows this and certainly felt it was OK to use but you might want to check just in case.
BTW, thanks a bunch for posting about finding the problem.
Cheers,
Eric