Not using all my horses by design??

[Cycledude]

I've recent acquired a good amount of acres, but they're all steep. I have a small tractor, but it's not even close to cutting it on the hills while working (20hp). I need something bigger like an M7060 or L6060 but found a cheap Kubota M108s low profile 8 speed with 1300hrs. Of course, the horse power is way more than I need. Im going to be using a tiller, BH100 backhoe, FEL, and other equipment.

I won't be using all the HP, so I won't been to be hard into pedal. So here's the question. Does it make sense, fuel wise, to get the tractor seeing as I won't be deep into the power band to run and do what I'm looking to do? Particularly with it being 8spd.

I've looked up M7060 and they can easily get to 5+ gph full bore. An M9000 is 5 to 10gph depending on who you ask at full throttle. If this tractor is 10gph at idle it might not be worth it...but I don't know.

(edited for clarity)

108 horsepower wow that is a big jump from your current 20 horsepower. 5-10 GPH sounds high but you definitely can’t believe everything you read. My 55 horsepower LS with a little over 300 hours on it seems to usually use about 1.5 GPH , I have kept records of every fill, sometimes it’s only 1 GPH but it’s usually closer to 1.5 GPH.
So are you planning to get rid of your old tractor and attachments and buy different attachments suitable for a 108 horsepower tractor ?

 

[Atypical_decorum]

108 horsepower wow that is a big jump from your current 20 horsepower. 5-10 GPH sounds high but you definitely can’t believe everything you read. My 55 horsepower LS with a little over 300 hours on it seems to usually use about 1.5 GPH , I have kept records of every fill, sometimes it’s only 1 GPH but it’s usually closer to 1.5 GPH.
So are you planning to get rid of your old tractor and attachments and buy different attachments suitable for a 108 horsepower tractor ?

I would hope not. I found a white paper on other M9000 and another similar sized kubota and the gph was up to 5gph at 75% throttle.

I was hoping the M108s was going to be the same or less at less power required.

Definitely not getting rid of my small tractor or anything I have for it. I can do a lot of smaller jobs with it and I just got new ballasted tires, so there's another 800 reasons to keep it!

The only thing keeping me from that M108s is trying to find a reasonably priced loader. I can't find any La1403's for sale and the new one that fits it is $15k new!

 

[Atypical_decorum]

108 horsepower wow that is a big jump from your current 20 horsepower. 5-10 GPH sounds high but you definitely can’t believe everything you read. My 55 horsepower LS with a little over 300 hours on it seems to usually use about 1.5 GPH , I have kept records of every fill, sometimes it’s only 1 GPH but it’s usually closer to 1.5 GPH.
So are you planning to get rid of your old tractor and attachments and buy different attachments suitable for a 108 horsepower tractor ?

It's a definite jump. But I figure the 50 or 70hp I actually need out of it would be no sweat. As opposed to getting a 50hp constantly at WOT and ocassionaly wishing I had more (ha, like we all do)...

 

[Atypical_decorum]

Sure. We all know the answer. I think you do too.

Since you are looking at a pre emissions model, there is no downside to running a higher hp tractor at a lower rpm. Old style pre emission tractors have flat torque over a wide RPM range, so using a larger pre-emissions diesel at lower rpm will just end up taking a little longer to do the job and burn less fuel in the process.
No real downside for individual use. You can even use lower HP implements that way.

We run our 90 hp pre-emissions tractor at about 1/3 rated rpm when not using the PTO. Since the torque on that engine is flat from idle to full rpm, it becomes a rather heavy 30 hp tractor and uses proportionately less fuel. For PTO use, select a lower gear.

rScotty

I didn't actually know the flatness of the curse. That's good to hear though.

I guess the clarification really lies in if fuel is dumped into the 3.8L engine at a disproportionately high rate to get my lower hp requirements or if there's damage over time to low requirements with the ocassionaly higher need on the fuel pump, valves etc.

Or if it's even a good idea....

Hearing you do the same is good. Have you experienced any down sides??

 

[Atypical_decorum]

I'd be honored. Never had a full sized tractor owner put me on ignore before.

Thank you. Hopefully the good information keeps rolling in.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

Well, not here to sidetrack your post, just going by the incorrect info you provided in your initial post. There was no pre-emission M7060 or M5 Kubota's. Those are new models introduced with emission equipment.

Maybe I read your initial post wrong. You kept mentioning M7060 and M5's.

Not required for the initial question though. Picking up the side piece of information while ignoring the main question and point of the question is akin to trolling. And I sure as you were sitting there writing your response you knew you were on an unrelated tangent but wanted to prove your point.

 

[CobyRupert]

“Theoretically” power is power. The power required is determined by the load, or task, being performed, and the speed/rate it’s being performed at. Not by the tractor being used.

If a task is performed at the same speed/rate, both tractors are providing the same amount of power.

…then you get into the efficiency of the motor at that rate. And at that rpm/torque, etc..
A small wound up turbo engine may be more fuel efficient than a motor operating outside its power band. A heavy tractor may take more fuel to push itself up the hill, etc..

Or vice-versa. Example: a small tractor may use (let’s say) 50% of its energy moving itself and the attachment, and only use 50% on the “task”; whereas a large tractor may only use (say) 20% of its energy on itself and have 80% for the “task”.

Or, if performing the task at different rates, the load’s power requirements may not necessarily be linear with different rates. That is, because of the nature of the load, it may take more than twice the horsepower, or less than twice, to do something at twice the speed.

IMO, there are many, many, variables involved when trying to predict what the fuel-to-task accomplishment ratio will be.
….and don’t forget that “time is money” too.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

I'm going to give anecdotal info since I don't have any lengthy knowledge. I would say go for the big one. I've looked at the same quandary although I have so far used other means to accomplish the projects I was intending for the larger tractor so I ended up not needing the larger machine.

Mechanically you should have no issue. Look at all the hay tractors of different sizes pulling a rake. Power wise my 1025R would probably do, maybe that's extreme but they don't take hardly any power to use. But, lots of people only have a machine or 2 to use and end up with a comically large tractor on a little rake. Lots of people site weight as a reason to go to a larger machine and thus increase HP as a function of what's available in the frame size that offers the weight they are after, think grain carts or plowing.

As far as fuel load I've been using some heavy excavation equipment around my place doing several projects. The dozer and track hoe have a gauge that shows gallons per hour. They are run at constant RPM and depending on load applied go from around .5 gph up to 6-7 gph at that same constant full throttle RPM. My assumption is that you would be using a similar amount of fuel running a smaller one harder or a larger one easier. Probably leaning toward more on the higher HP model closer to no load and more comparatively on the lower HP model on something that is taxing for it and the same load on the higher HP model. That might not have made sense...

 

[Atypical_decorum]

And I have said nothing negative, nor tried to steer you away from emission motored tractors.
I only stated that having a proper sized engine and running it so it keeps it's optimal COMBUSTION (not coolant) temperature up will keep it a lot happier than having a big motor and idling it all the time.
Sorry for any confusion.

Would idling not bring it to propert temperature? What type of running or operating parameters would bring the engine to it's appropriate temperature?

From what ive seen, any engine, diesel or gas, the water pump will eventually circulate the fluid to remove heat from the engine at idle.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

Wow you have issues. Good luck, LOL I only said because you SAID M7060 and because THAT MODEL has a DPF you need to run it hard to avoid problems.
Thought I was just trying to give you some advice, oh well. Go buy a 300 horse tractor and idle it all day for all I care, LOL

Lol. I said I was looking at a possible M7060, too. Stop being a troll please.

 

[scootr]

I knew a guy who looked like me that bought too big of a tractor once. It was a magnificent beast of a machine. Too heavy and too big for most jobs around here but he kept it for almost 15 years before downsizing to 52hp HST.
Bigger isn't always better IMHO. Good luck.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

I'm going to give anecdotal info since I don't have any lengthy knowledge. I would say go for the big one. I've looked at the same quandary although I have so far used other means to accomplish the projects I was intending for the larger tractor so I ended up not needing the larger machine.

Mechanically you should have no issue. Look at all the hay tractors of different sizes pulling a rake. Power wise my 1025R would probably do, maybe that's extreme but they don't take hardly any power to use. But, lots of people only have a machine or 2 to use and end up with a comically large tractor on a little rake. Lots of people site weight as a reason to go to a larger machine and thus increase HP as a function of what's available in the frame size that offers the weight they are after, think grain carts or plowing.

As far as fuel load I've been using some heavy excavation equipment around my place doing several projects. The dozer and track hoe have a gauge that shows gallons per hour. They are run at constant RPM and depending on load applied go from around .5 gph up to 6-7 gph at that same constant full throttle RPM. My assumption is that you would be using a similar amount of fuel running a smaller one harder or a larger one easier. Probably leaning toward more on the higher HP model closer to no load and more comparatively on the lower HP model on something that is taxing for it and the same load on the higher HP model. That might not have made sense...

Exactly. RPM can stay the same, fuel consumption can change independently.

I think I understand your point. Low hp will use the same fuel as a high hp when doing work that requires a specific hp as long as it's in range of the low hp tractor. However, when the little one would stall, the big one won't. But the fuel might edge on the higher side for the big one.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

I knew a guy who looked like me that bought too big of a tractor once. It was a magnificent beast of a machine. Too heavy and too big for most jobs around here but he kept it for almost 15 years before downsizing to 52hp HST.
Bigger isn't always better IMHO. Good luck.

Lol. I understand that. This M108s has 1300hrs and is $20k though! I probably could go smaller and be fine, but it's so tempting.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

Would idling not bring it to propert temperature? What type of running or operating parameters would bring the engine to it's appropriate temperature?

From what ive seen, any engine, diesel or gas, the water pump will eventually circulate the fluid to remove heat from the engine.

This is not for you. This is for future TBN users who are doing research and come across this thread.
No. Idling is not the preferd way to get or keep a diesel engine in its optimal operating range. If you have ever seen a truck with it radiator partially blocked in the cold there is a reason for that. Diesel have no way to ignite the fuel charge so it is relying on compression and combustion chamber temperature to ignite and fully burn the fuel. Lower chamber temps result in incomplete fuel burns. Im not going to get into idling and modern emissions or the effect on piston rings. Also please don't think because your neighbor has a 25HP Kubota utility tractor pulling a plow you can do the same with a 24HP garden tractor.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

This is not for you. This is for future TBN users who are doing research and come across this thread.
No. Idling is not the preferd way to get or keep a diesel engine in its optimal operating range. If you have ever seen a truck with it radiator partially blocked in the cold there is a reason for that. Diesel have no way to ignite the fuel charge so it is relying on combustion chamber temperature to ignite a fully burn the fuel. Lower chamber temps result in incomplete fuel burns. Im not going to get into idling and modern emissions or the effect on piston rings. Also please don't think because your neighbor has a 25HP Kubota utility tractor pulling a plow you can do the same with a 24HP garden tractor.

I thought the point of the blocked radiator was so they kept the radiators from freezing and the engine oil from gaining too much viscosity in the coolers when the wind chill went very low (and all the havoc that leads to). I didn't know that the partial block was to keep the chambers hot enough to burn the fuel fully. I'm not a driver though, I only know a handful of them. I learn something everyday....


I see the "reference quality" posts your making. Hopefully someone will see them one day and see their value.

 

[sd455dan]

Not to be controversial but you are confusing HP with torque. HP is a measurement of time while torque is a rotational force. I only mention it for those new to engines designed to do work. Knowing the HP and torque numbers and at which RPM those are achieved is always a good thing. Peak HP at low RPM is a good thing with a tractor IMO. For example a 40HP tractor making peak HP @ 2200RPM is making around 95ftlbs of torque. That same 40HP engine making its peak HP @ 2600RPM is making around 80ftlbs of torque.

Gee in that class give me a Ford 175 3 cylinder diesel making peak torque @1150 and maintaining over 100lb feet down to about 900 RPM OR Even the smaller 158 gas version, torque peak is 125 lb ft. @1350 RPM at least according to tractordata and depending on year of build

 

[rScotty]

For years we used tractors sized to do the job when running at their most efficient. Then we moved to larger tractors. Our littlest tractor is now 60 hp. The work hasn't changed. Larger tractors are way more comfortable and you can buy them with lots of life left for the price of a little tractor. There just aren't many downsides.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

For years we used tractors sized to do the job when running at their most efficient. Then we moved to larger tractors. Our littlest tractor is now 60 hp. The work hasn't changed. Larger tractors are way more comfortable and you can buy them with lots of life left for the price of a little tractor. There just aren't many downsides.

Exactly my question. Thank you sir!

That M108s tractor is out. It's only an 8spd. Found me a M9960 12spd low profile.

I'd love a cab, but beggars can't be choosers.

 

[skipperbrown]

Just make sure you don't have to replace all your implements with more suitable sized implements, unless you want to. My M4-071 burns about 2.5 gallons/hr pulling a 12' cutter.

 

[ttouring]

I've recent acquired a good amount of acres, but they're all steep. I have a small tractor, but it's not even close to cutting it on the hills while working (20hp). I need something bigger like an M7060 or L6060 but found a cheap Kubota M108s low profile 8 speed with 1300hrs. Of course, the horse power is way more than I need. Im going to be using a tiller, BH100 backhoe, FEL, and other equipment.

I won't be using all the HP, so I won't been to be hard into pedal. So here's the question. Does it make sense, fuel wise, to get the tractor seeing as I won't be deep into the power band to run and do what I'm looking to do? Particularly with it being 8spd.

I've looked up M7060 and they can easily get to 5+ gph full bore. An M9000 is 5 to 10gph depending on who you ask at full throttle. If this tractor is 10gph at idle it might not be worth it...but I don't know.

(edited for clarity)

Low horse power means extended time on a job while more horse power means less time on a job. You decide