another hiccup to going solar?

   / another hiccup to going solar? #171  
Friend lives there. The HMO wouldn't allow him to install panels on his house he paid for. I said one word..."MOVE"!
Lots of HMO restrictions/regulations with some over ridden by law.

Plenty of HOA with solar going in.

I have one HOA property and it helps the building committee are like minded neighbors.

My HOA came about in 1948 to maintain equestrian trails and vehicle roads…

Only one run in and that was when I was working extended shifts at the hospital during height of pandemic and my Waste Management tote was roadside the next day… until I was finally able to go home.

Write an open letter to HOA saying “Really” during the height of the pandemic with Healthcare workers stretched to the breaking and someone has time to tally totes left out past collection? Last I heard.

My solar is ground mount because I did not want to mess with clay roof tiles.
 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #172  
Friend lives there. The HMO wouldn't allow him to install panels on his house he paid for. I said one word..."MOVE"!

Texas Property Code limits the restrictions HOAs can put on personal solar.

They can restrict it sticking above the roof line or require proof that it is being installed on the most productive elevations.

I’m on an HOA Board. Solar is a pretty easy issue due to the state law.
 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #173  
   / another hiccup to going solar? #174  
Welcome to my world with rural coop electric and why I havent switched to solar.

But to be clear.....anyone can be "free" of them if you have your own storage (batteries).

But the days of being able to use the "grid" as your "battery" for free are coming to an end. And I knew this day was coming because current solar model is not sustainable. Why should all the non-solar customers have to pay extra to subsidize all the solar customers.

Ill use 25ȼ and 4ȼ because thats what the article used

They said people currently paying 25ȼ for electric are currently getting a 25ȼ credit for solar they arent using. Directly offsetting their bill. Even though they are using "grid" power during peak times (evening when everyone is cooking and has lights on and TV, etc). Yet during the peak of solar output during the day when no one is at home and everyone working.....they are selling it back to the grid for the same 25ȼ they are paying. But that is gonna get cut to 4ȼ

Why is that you wonder......

Well your electric company is SELLING you power for 25ȼ. But that encompasses everything. That is the sum of their generation, transmission, distribution, transformers, meters, etc etc. They are BUYING their power at wholesale for 4ȼ. The other 21ȼ is all those other things that you STILL NEED if you are grid tied. You still need distribution, and the power lines/poles, and the linemen, and a meter, etc etc.

So let me ask.....why should NON-solar customers be forced to buy your surplus solar @25ȼ instead of the market wholesale rate which is 4ȼ? In what world does that make sense? As a business you want to buy from the most affordable supplier right?

Lots of problems with this whole thing. Say if a person generates 10 KWH of power a month and uses 10 KWH of power a month, then what should their bill be? $0? $20 for the line and connect fees?

While residential power consumption may peak in mid morning and early evening, business power consumption will peak mid day. So, it all evens out. The biggest problem for power generators is the late night period from say midnight to 6 AM when everyone is asleep, and nobody is using electricity. However, that is also the time when no solar energy is generated, and wind will keep blowing somewhat. I assume dusk is often best for wind generation.

Some power companies (including in California) have programs to encourage EV owners to charge during that after midnight lull.

If I was going to have to invest in the solar panels and the battery system, I'd very much consider going off-grid. Well, except the problem around here that the sun can just vanish for weeks at a time. I think in the last 2 or 3 weeks, we've hardly had 2 or 3 hours of sunlight. Thus the power companies would get no benefit from the excess power. And they'd no longer get their monthly connect fees.
 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #175  
Lots of problems with this whole thing. Say if a person generates 10 KWH of power a month and uses 10 KWH of power a month, then what should their bill be? $0? $20 for the line and connect fees?

While residential power consumption may peak in mid morning and early evening, business power consumption will peak mid day. So, it all evens out. The biggest problem for power generators is the late night period from say midnight to 6 AM when everyone is asleep, and nobody is using electricity. However, that is also the time when no solar energy is generated, and wind will keep blowing somewhat. I assume dusk is often best for wind generation.

Some power companies (including in California) have programs to encourage EV owners to charge during that after midnight lull.

If I was going to have to invest in the solar panels and the battery system, I'd very much consider going off-grid. Well, except the problem around here that the sun can just vanish for weeks at a time. I think in the last 2 or 3 weeks, we've hardly had 2 or 3 hours of sunlight. Thus the power companies would get no benefit from the excess power. And they'd no longer get their monthly connect fees.
The challenge is that demand doesn't even out, either daily, or month to month.

Even for homeowners who have enough solar (or wind or hydro) to balance their average power needs over the entire year, the generation and demand both vary by time of day and time of year, and sometimes by weather. Here in California, the difference between demand and supply is greatest August/September, between 17:00-19:00 (5-7pm). In Texas, it is January during cold spells. This is one reason why it is great to have grid interconnects to shift power. California currently (pun intended) sends power north during the winter to help Oregon and Washington with winter heating demand, and the reverse happens in the summer. California also exports power to states east of it to help them with their 5-7pm demand peaks.

To the extent that consumers, business and home consumers, can load shift, either by changing heating/cooling times or EV charging, that reduces the peak demand, and peak demand power is expensive, because it gets used infrequently, so the annual costs have to be paid for in the short periods of time that the peak power generation is needed. (Which with good interconnections can pay to move the power long distances.)

Here is an example of hour by hour power costs arranged by month for San Diego.

1706390737260.jpeg


In a similar way, even if a consumer only draws on the grid in mid-winter or late August, the transmission wires, transformers, generation plants, and related grid infrastructure have to be kept in working shape, year round.

So, I don't know what the "right" monthly charge is, but if the per kWh charges are converted to a per kWh generation cost, and a per month grid connection cost, that connection cost might well be $70-200/mo, in part because large consumers (businesses, and wealthy homeowners with large per month consumption) effectively subsidize small consumers.

I don't like the current California proposal for many reasons, but I do understand that there are some substantial distortions in how power is currently priced to the end user. Personally, I think that keeping the $/kWh high incentivizes end consumers to keep their energy efficiency high. I have lived places that had free, or nearly free, power, and people do dumb energy things, so I can see that a large fixed bill with low per kWh prices will encourage consumers not to make good decisions. (And by poor decisions I mean in the sense that using even more power increases costs by causing increased grid demand, the need for larger generator investments, more transmission lines, etc.)

All the best,

Peter
 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #176  
scary read....my sister signed up for one of these years ago. i need to talk to her



 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #177  
To me, buying a solar system doesn't make sense for many reasons and I thought about it 10 years ago. I spoke with our electric company guy knowledgeable about solar who said no way would he consider it.
He said my kwh price was 15c, but they pay me 3c. Back then it was about $25K for system. Then on the roof & we recently had a new roof installed. Of course it could go on the ground somewhere. Then as mentioned batteries for cloudy days and night.
Then I thought about $25,000 in an S&P index fund (10.2% last 10 years)...that alone the interest is double our electric bill! In 10 years compounded is a bit over $66,000 and nothing to bother with, batteries, inverter, a damaged panel, etc.
Our friends, neighbors bought a Generac system about that time. Again, the cost, a 500 gal. propane tank and it runs every few days for testing I assume. Again, something else to fool with.
Being here 44 years I can say we've lost power a grand total of MAYBE 30 hours...usually an hour at a time.
Strange how people don't reason things out!
 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #178  
Here is an example of hour by hour power costs arranged by month for San Diego.

View attachment 848982

In a similar way, even if a consumer only draws on the grid in mid-winter or late August, the transmission wires, transformers, generation plants, and related grid infrastructure have to be kept in working shape, year round.
I assume rates are related to load. What happened in the early evenings August through October (then getting better in November/December)?

The mid day rates plummeting may well be related to the success of a residential solar program. Are they also encouraging solar hot water? Anyway, blow up the residential solar, and that mid day benefit may go away.

There may be benefits of a distributed power generation. So get one's power from a few blocks away rather than dozens of miles away. Yet, I also understand your point that one has to consider peak load on cold cloudy windless days.

We just went through a week long power outage. It is time for me to start thinking about a power backup system. However, it also makes one wonder about homes with natural gas or propane heat (and adequate power to power the fans and thermostats).

I see your point of high energy users "subsidizing" low energy users. However, nearly half of my power bills are from the service connect fees. So, effectively I'm paying double the energy rates of some most of my neighbors. It seems to me to be a rather regressive system.
`
 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #179  
I assume rates are related to load. What happened in the early evenings August through October (then getting better in November/December)?

The mid day rates plummeting may well be related to the success of a residential solar program. Are they also encouraging solar hot water? Anyway, blow up the residential solar, and that mid day benefit may go away.

There may be benefits of a distributed power generation. So get one's power from a few blocks away rather than dozens of miles away. Yet, I also understand your point that one has to consider peak load on cold cloudy windless days.

We just went through a week long power outage. It is time for me to start thinking about a power backup system. However, it also makes one wonder about homes with natural gas or propane heat (and adequate power to power the fans and thermostats).

I see your point of high energy users "subsidizing" low energy users. However, nearly half of my power bills are from the service connect fees. So, effectively I'm paying double the energy rates of some most of my neighbors. It seems to me to be a rather regressive system.
`
Yes, it is a certainly a complex system.

I am not sure that the current system is regressive; since the base fee is much less than the actual grid / transmission / maintenance costs, it is the largest users of power who pay the most towards supporting the grid, though the base fee is a larger fraction of the bill for the smallest users.

The new "meter", aka base, fee does have three levels of income brackets that set the meter fees to make the power cost per kWh somewhat scaled by income, but it is a crude metric, and not a terribly workable mechanism.(in my opinion)

In the chart above, the peak is post solar (smaller power supply, higher demand, with less cheap solar power available) and occurs when the local climate is at its hottest and the times when folks are returning home to overheated homes, cranking up the AC. Solutions? Well white roofs would be a start, followed by more home insulation, and better solar overhangs to keep direct sunlight out during the heat, followed by smarter thermostat control to precool the homes when power is cheap, or more batteries (local and otherwise) to store the cheap, plentiful solar and feed it back at peak demand. (Or add thermal energy storage devices like the "Ice Bear" from Ice Energy.) Oh, and of course, better energy efficiency. Things like EVs can help by putting charging loads overnight or during peak solar.

The flatter, and more predictable the demand curve, the easier it is to guarantee the power.

Our Ag use power rates are about $5/kWh, because of a large fixed demand charge, (like a "meter fee") which is basically a fee for reserving that much generation power for us whenever we want it. Utilities have been playing the fee and rate game for generations, and the surviving ones are really, really good at baking in profits. Other than utilities, only really good venture funds get 10% per year returns, but our utility has that profit guarantee as part of their contract to provide power.

Yes, it needs reforming...

All the best,

Peter
 
   / another hiccup to going solar? #180  
They put solar panels on about 20,000 acres near me, but I haven't seen the sun in what seems to be about 3 weeks. I wonder how it's working?
 

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