another hiccup to going solar?

[ning]

I'll assume the questions are in good faith...

If the solar is generating power as needed why do you have battery/generator backup?

Without a battery or generator backup, the solar can't be used to establish a grid because it can't be relied on to react nearly instantaneously to new loads.
I can have AC running completely off of solar - no draw on the batteries - but at the moment that the AC actually turned on, the solar was likely only producing 1kW base loads for the house, so when the AC turned on, it probably pulled from the battery briefly and then was "turned up" by the inverters to meet the load (obviously this only works if there's sufficient sun).

There is nothing cute about it.
AGAIN, without violating NEC standards, what amount of power does a grid tied system generate when the grid goes down? just under 2 kw max? Which is only useable on a completely separate circuit (ie extension cord) or to feed a Tesla Powerwall, Enphase IQ, etc…(extra 10k ++) just enough to run one refrigerator and a couple of lights.
Im happy you and others think this is a magic pill.

This is merely another (government incentive) distraction. Why isn’t geothermal HVAC more subsidized, a large percentage of your energy use is allocated for your comfort (heat, ac, domestic hw)? Wave power, where’d it go? Remember when solar water heaters were the rage? Remember when propane/NG was the countries saving grace? Auto manufacturers pushed mass transit aside, now we want more mass transit. The list goes on and history will repeat itself, again.

(Ok, my assumption was probably wrong.)

There's no violation of NEC standards. My grid-tied system can produce 7.68kW, and I've seen it as high as 7kW myself, when the grid does go down.
If the grid is down after solar hours though I typically turn off all of the unnecessary draws so that the battery will last longer, in case the grid stays down for a while (especially in the wintertime, when solar is crap if it's iffy weather).

 

[ddbackhoe]

I'm starting to think you're being obtuse on purpose. I'm going to answer this one and see.

I get it, you jumped in, dont like my responses and I’m the problem

 

[ning]

It costs more than the usual whole house generator run off a propane tank. But our neighbors who had those both ran out of propane during the outages this winter. Propane trucks can't deliver when the road is closed, which is not infrequent here. If you're in a place with a lot of outages and can afford it, solar + batteries + small generator is the way to go with the current state of technology.

I have plans to install a generator for this precise reason - grid failures here happen for two reasons, fire, or winter storms. Fire-related outages usually happen during decent solar weather (Sept/Oct seem the common though the utility has been doing so much work on the lines for the moment after literally killing a nearby town with their negligence so they're not having to preemptively shut off power as much); winter storms happen when there's pretty much zero solar production, even with a lack of snowfall you often get maybe 1kWh/day out of a system on a very dark overcast day (I was surprised to see so much solar in VT, is it really that sunny in VT? - not when I was there!).

There were people nearby whose 250 gallon propane tanks got emptied in under a week during a 2+ week outage here in Jan'22 because their whole-house backup generators run 24/7 if only to provide 1-2kW of basic power to the house for the standby TV, USB chargers etc and fridge. A gasoline or propane generator running at idle still uses a surprising amount of fuel! And yeah, the didn't get refilled for over a month.

I've computed that with a spare 250g propane tank I've got here (we swapped to 1000g long ago, fill up once a year), using it to top up the batteries with judicious use of power in the house (no hot tub, reasonable amount of lights, no electric tea kettle, use the kitchen stove for that [propane, other tank system]) I would be able to go 30 days with zero solar recharge. Thirty days without any solar production is possible, but typically we have at least a partly sunny day here or there even in mid-winter and many overcast days you'll still get at least some production.

The reason that scheme works well is that the gas powered generators are the most efficient near their full output (definitely not near idle), so by sizing the generator to be able to run the most efficiently when pushing max charge at the batteries (plus enough for baseline+ house use) you get the most out of the fuel.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

This is comical.

Is your house insulated?

Mine is. Cost money. Saves money.

Without me writing a lengthy diatribe of course spending money WISELY saves money. Our electric bill averages $100/month. Spending $30+K solar panels & batteries to save that $1,200/year is penny wise pound foolish.
My power company pays for their equipment and I don't have to tend panels and batteries.
Go ahead and dissect what I said.

 

[ultrarunner]

Not a criticism at all and why running your individual numbers for your situation is so important.

Paying 12 cents a kW vs say 36 cents in my area once the city taxes and fees added opens options and that is not taking into account all the various credits and incentives offfered.

Should the numbers be favorable one needs to identify if a suitable site exists and if average sunshine provides a payoff.

Lots of variables to be sure and that is not getting into the use of solar has kept expensive peaker plants idle during the heat of the summer where utilities already have capacity issues.

My falling into my situation at no cost and meeting all my electric needs plus getting my annual true-up check this year for $360 puts a smile on my face and makes me more aware of my energy budget.

A few neighbors have no cost fantastic Solar even including new roof sections with a 20 year contract to buy kW at a certain fixed price has work very well. Maybe just timing and luck but still a great deal for them paying 2015 rates going forward at zero cost to them.

 

[ponytug]

While not all grid-tied solar systems can produce power without the grid, many of the more recent ones can.

Batteries can be helpful for shifted solar power to other times of day, either because of time of use billing, or because of outages.

I agree with @ultrarunner that the devil is in the details for whether or not installing solar with or without batteries pencils out for any given owner.

There was a time when I happily pulled out the kerosene lamp and candles when the power went out. Our current living arrangements necessitate having power. Such is life. Personally, I love not having to haul out the generator when the power goes out, but it is still around for those winter storms that can grind down the solar power production to almost nothing.

All the best,

Peter

 

[bnold]

Without me writing a lengthy diatribe of course spending money WISELY saves money. Our electric bill averages $100/month. Spending $30+K solar panels & batteries to save that $1,200/year is penny wise pound foolish.
My power company pays for their equipment and I don't have to tend panels and batteries.
Go ahead and dissect what I said.

Good for you.


My electric bill would have been around $671 last month @ 19.4c/kWh after fees.

A $20k investment with ~5yr straight line ROI works for me.

No batteries, no need.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Glad you're happy. I know I am!

 

[ultrarunner]

Good for you.


My electric bill would have been around $671 last month @ 19.4c/kWh after fees.

A $20k investment with ~5yr straight line ROI works for me.

No batteries, no need.

I think this is one reason Solar is popular here… the very high cost of electricity in California with dozens of fees/taxes.

Although the actual cost of production seems to be ok compared to transportation, etc.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Friend lives there. The HMO wouldn't allow him to install panels on his house he paid for. I said one word..."MOVE"!

 

[ultrarunner]

Friend lives there. The HMO wouldn't allow him to install panels on his house he paid for. I said one word..."MOVE"!

Lots of HMO restrictions/regulations with some over ridden by law.

Plenty of HOA with solar going in.

I have one HOA property and it helps the building committee are like minded neighbors.

My HOA came about in 1948 to maintain equestrian trails and vehicle roads…

Only one run in and that was when I was working extended shifts at the hospital during height of pandemic and my Waste Management tote was roadside the next day… until I was finally able to go home.

Write an open letter to HOA saying “Really” during the height of the pandemic with Healthcare workers stretched to the breaking and someone has time to tally totes left out past collection? Last I heard.

My solar is ground mount because I did not want to mess with clay roof tiles.

 

[bnold]

Friend lives there. The HMO wouldn't allow him to install panels on his house he paid for. I said one word..."MOVE"!

Texas Property Code limits the restrictions HOAs can put on personal solar.

They can restrict it sticking above the roof line or require proof that it is being installed on the most productive elevations.

I’m on an HOA Board. Solar is a pretty easy issue due to the state law.

 

[ultrarunner]

The change in net metering impacting roll out.

https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/01/california-solar-demand-plummets/

 

[CliffordK]

Welcome to my world with rural coop electric and why I havent switched to solar.

But to be clear.....anyone can be "free" of them if you have your own storage (batteries).

But the days of being able to use the "grid" as your "battery" for free are coming to an end. And I knew this day was coming because current solar model is not sustainable. Why should all the non-solar customers have to pay extra to subsidize all the solar customers.

Ill use 25ȼ and 4ȼ because thats what the article used

They said people currently paying 25ȼ for electric are currently getting a 25ȼ credit for solar they arent using. Directly offsetting their bill. Even though they are using "grid" power during peak times (evening when everyone is cooking and has lights on and TV, etc). Yet during the peak of solar output during the day when no one is at home and everyone working.....they are selling it back to the grid for the same 25ȼ they are paying. But that is gonna get cut to 4ȼ

Why is that you wonder......

Well your electric company is SELLING you power for 25ȼ. But that encompasses everything. That is the sum of their generation, transmission, distribution, transformers, meters, etc etc. They are BUYING their power at wholesale for 4ȼ. The other 21ȼ is all those other things that you STILL NEED if you are grid tied. You still need distribution, and the power lines/poles, and the linemen, and a meter, etc etc.

So let me ask.....why should NON-solar customers be forced to buy your surplus solar @25ȼ instead of the market wholesale rate which is 4ȼ? In what world does that make sense? As a business you want to buy from the most affordable supplier right?

Lots of problems with this whole thing. Say if a person generates 10 KWH of power a month and uses 10 KWH of power a month, then what should their bill be? $0? $20 for the line and connect fees?

While residential power consumption may peak in mid morning and early evening, business power consumption will peak mid day. So, it all evens out. The biggest problem for power generators is the late night period from say midnight to 6 AM when everyone is asleep, and nobody is using electricity. However, that is also the time when no solar energy is generated, and wind will keep blowing somewhat. I assume dusk is often best for wind generation.

Some power companies (including in California) have programs to encourage EV owners to charge during that after midnight lull.

If I was going to have to invest in the solar panels and the battery system, I'd very much consider going off-grid. Well, except the problem around here that the sun can just vanish for weeks at a time. I think in the last 2 or 3 weeks, we've hardly had 2 or 3 hours of sunlight. Thus the power companies would get no benefit from the excess power. And they'd no longer get their monthly connect fees.

 

[ponytug]

Lots of problems with this whole thing. Say if a person generates 10 KWH of power a month and uses 10 KWH of power a month, then what should their bill be? $0? $20 for the line and connect fees?

While residential power consumption may peak in mid morning and early evening, business power consumption will peak mid day. So, it all evens out. The biggest problem for power generators is the late night period from say midnight to 6 AM when everyone is asleep, and nobody is using electricity. However, that is also the time when no solar energy is generated, and wind will keep blowing somewhat. I assume dusk is often best for wind generation.

Some power companies (including in California) have programs to encourage EV owners to charge during that after midnight lull.

If I was going to have to invest in the solar panels and the battery system, I'd very much consider going off-grid. Well, except the problem around here that the sun can just vanish for weeks at a time. I think in the last 2 or 3 weeks, we've hardly had 2 or 3 hours of sunlight. Thus the power companies would get no benefit from the excess power. And they'd no longer get their monthly connect fees.

The challenge is that demand doesn't even out, either daily, or month to month.

Even for homeowners who have enough solar (or wind or hydro) to balance their average power needs over the entire year, the generation and demand both vary by time of day and time of year, and sometimes by weather. Here in California, the difference between demand and supply is greatest August/September, between 17:00-19:00 (5-7pm). In Texas, it is January during cold spells. This is one reason why it is great to have grid interconnects to shift power. California currently (pun intended) sends power north during the winter to help Oregon and Washington with winter heating demand, and the reverse happens in the summer. California also exports power to states east of it to help them with their 5-7pm demand peaks.

To the extent that consumers, business and home consumers, can load shift, either by changing heating/cooling times or EV charging, that reduces the peak demand, and peak demand power is expensive, because it gets used infrequently, so the annual costs have to be paid for in the short periods of time that the peak power generation is needed. (Which with good interconnections can pay to move the power long distances.)

Here is an example of hour by hour power costs arranged by month for San Diego.

In a similar way, even if a consumer only draws on the grid in mid-winter or late August, the transmission wires, transformers, generation plants, and related grid infrastructure have to be kept in working shape, year round.

So, I don't know what the "right" monthly charge is, but if the per kWh charges are converted to a per kWh generation cost, and a per month grid connection cost, that connection cost might well be $70-200/mo, in part because large consumers (businesses, and wealthy homeowners with large per month consumption) effectively subsidize small consumers.

I don't like the current California proposal for many reasons, but I do understand that there are some substantial distortions in how power is currently priced to the end user. Personally, I think that keeping the $/kWh high incentivizes end consumers to keep their energy efficiency high. I have lived places that had free, or nearly free, power, and people do dumb energy things, so I can see that a large fixed bill with low per kWh prices will encourage consumers not to make good decisions. (And by poor decisions I mean in the sense that using even more power increases costs by causing increased grid demand, the need for larger generator investments, more transmission lines, etc.)

All the best,

Peter

 

[grsthegreat]

scary read....my sister signed up for one of these years ago. i need to talk to her

Residential Solar Is In Trouble

Complicated financial products helped the U.S. rooftop-solar-power industry grow, but now put it at risk of implosion.

time.com

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

To me, buying a solar system doesn't make sense for many reasons and I thought about it 10 years ago. I spoke with our electric company guy knowledgeable about solar who said no way would he consider it.
He said my kwh price was 15c, but they pay me 3c. Back then it was about $25K for system. Then on the roof & we recently had a new roof installed. Of course it could go on the ground somewhere. Then as mentioned batteries for cloudy days and night.
Then I thought about $25,000 in an S&P index fund (10.2% last 10 years)...that alone the interest is double our electric bill! In 10 years compounded is a bit over $66,000 and nothing to bother with, batteries, inverter, a damaged panel, etc.
Our friends, neighbors bought a Generac system about that time. Again, the cost, a 500 gal. propane tank and it runs every few days for testing I assume. Again, something else to fool with.
Being here 44 years I can say we've lost power a grand total of MAYBE 30 hours...usually an hour at a time.
Strange how people don't reason things out!

 

[CliffordK]

Here is an example of hour by hour power costs arranged by month for San Diego.

View attachment 848982

In a similar way, even if a consumer only draws on the grid in mid-winter or late August, the transmission wires, transformers, generation plants, and related grid infrastructure have to be kept in working shape, year round.

I assume rates are related to load. What happened in the early evenings August through October (then getting better in November/December)?

The mid day rates plummeting may well be related to the success of a residential solar program. Are they also encouraging solar hot water? Anyway, blow up the residential solar, and that mid day benefit may go away.

There may be benefits of a distributed power generation. So get one's power from a few blocks away rather than dozens of miles away. Yet, I also understand your point that one has to consider peak load on cold cloudy windless days.

We just went through a week long power outage. It is time for me to start thinking about a power backup system. However, it also makes one wonder about homes with natural gas or propane heat (and adequate power to power the fans and thermostats).

I see your point of high energy users "subsidizing" low energy users. However, nearly half of my power bills are from the service connect fees. So, effectively I'm paying double the energy rates of some most of my neighbors. It seems to me to be a rather regressive system.
`

 

[ponytug]

I assume rates are related to load. What happened in the early evenings August through October (then getting better in November/December)?

The mid day rates plummeting may well be related to the success of a residential solar program. Are they also encouraging solar hot water? Anyway, blow up the residential solar, and that mid day benefit may go away.

There may be benefits of a distributed power generation. So get one's power from a few blocks away rather than dozens of miles away. Yet, I also understand your point that one has to consider peak load on cold cloudy windless days.

We just went through a week long power outage. It is time for me to start thinking about a power backup system. However, it also makes one wonder about homes with natural gas or propane heat (and adequate power to power the fans and thermostats).

I see your point of high energy users "subsidizing" low energy users. However, nearly half of my power bills are from the service connect fees. So, effectively I'm paying double the energy rates of some most of my neighbors. It seems to me to be a rather regressive system.
`

Yes, it is a certainly a complex system.

I am not sure that the current system is regressive; since the base fee is much less than the actual grid / transmission / maintenance costs, it is the largest users of power who pay the most towards supporting the grid, though the base fee is a larger fraction of the bill for the smallest users.

The new "meter", aka base, fee does have three levels of income brackets that set the meter fees to make the power cost per kWh somewhat scaled by income, but it is a crude metric, and not a terribly workable mechanism.(in my opinion)

In the chart above, the peak is post solar (smaller power supply, higher demand, with less cheap solar power available) and occurs when the local climate is at its hottest and the times when folks are returning home to overheated homes, cranking up the AC. Solutions? Well white roofs would be a start, followed by more home insulation, and better solar overhangs to keep direct sunlight out during the heat, followed by smarter thermostat control to precool the homes when power is cheap, or more batteries (local and otherwise) to store the cheap, plentiful solar and feed it back at peak demand. (Or add thermal energy storage devices like the "Ice Bear" from Ice Energy.) Oh, and of course, better energy efficiency. Things like EVs can help by putting charging loads overnight or during peak solar.

The flatter, and more predictable the demand curve, the easier it is to guarantee the power.

Our Ag use power rates are about $5/kWh, because of a large fixed demand charge, (like a "meter fee") which is basically a fee for reserving that much generation power for us whenever we want it. Utilities have been playing the fee and rate game for generations, and the surviving ones are really, really good at baking in profits. Other than utilities, only really good venture funds get 10% per year returns, but our utility has that profit guarantee as part of their contract to provide power.

Yes, it needs reforming...

All the best,

Peter

 

[lman]

They put solar panels on about 20,000 acres near me, but I haven't seen the sun in what seems to be about 3 weeks. I wonder how it's working?