Need to replace trailer jack

[ning]

I've got an M149 water buffalo trailer, ex-army. Has a 400 gallon stainless water tank and a super heavy frame.

It has a very heavy "landing gear" jack that allows the trailer to be moved around without lifting the jack; this jack takes up a lot of room where I'd like to put a hose reel and it also weighs a ton (there are kits to make it friendlier for a single soldier to handle!).

So, I'd like to remove it and replace it with a simple lighter trailer jack, as I have no need to move the trailer with the jack down and only need it to support the trailer when stationary.

There's a data/weights plate on the trailer similar to this one:

It appears that the tongue weight of the trailer itself, full or empty of water, is about 400 pounds (the tank is centered over the axle so it doesn't affect the tongue weight much).

Between my pump, hose reel & hose, and a bit of plumbing, I'll be adding another hundred pounds to the tongue weight.

Can I get by with a 2k trailer jack?

 

[ponytug]

I've got an M149 water buffalo trailer, ex-army. Has a 400 gallon stainless water tank and a super heavy frame.

It has a very heavy "landing gear" jack that allows the trailer to be moved around without lifting the jack; this jack takes up a lot of room where I'd like to put a hose reel and it also weighs a ton (there are kits to make it friendlier for a single soldier to handle!).

So, I'd like to remove it and replace it with a simple lighter trailer jack, as I have no need to move the trailer with the jack down and only need it to support the trailer when stationary.

There's a data/weights plate on the trailer similar to this one:
View attachment 884360

It appears that the tongue weight of the trailer itself, full or empty of water, is about 400 pounds (the tank is centered over the axle so it doesn't affect the tongue weight much).

Between my pump, hose reel & hose, and a bit of plumbing, I'll be adding another hundred pounds to the tongue weight.

Can I get by with a 2k trailer jack?

If your jack is rated to hold up 2,000lbs, yes, if it is rated for a 2,000lb trailer, my bet would be not for long.

Did you look over a SteelSoldiers.com? There are more than a few threads on good ways to adapt Army surplus trailer landing gear, in part because many go to surplus without landing gear.

If you do replace your landing gear, I would consider hanging on to it for whenever you sell the M149, as lots of folks like the military landing gear for its strength.

All the best,

Peter

 

[2manyrocks]

Maybe someone else has figured out something better, but my first guess would be that it will be difficult to find anything nearly as heavy duty as what is already installed. Do you have a pintle hitch for your tractor 3pt? I don't think you're going to be moving this trailer around much by hand no matter what you do. YMMV

 

[ponytug]

@ning try this;

M149A1 Water Buffalo with A2 Tank.

Recovered the water buffalo yesterday. The chassis plate shows it started life as an M149, then later updated to the A1 version. Still researching the differences. At some point, the A2 stainless steel tank was installed and that tag says 1987. Unknown if it’s a manufactured date or installed...

www.steelsoldiers.com

Or look over at e-trailer.com the folks over at steelsoldiers seem to use 7-8,000lb models.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

@ning try this;

M149A1 Water Buffalo with A2 Tank.

Recovered the water buffalo yesterday. The chassis plate shows it started life as an M149, then later updated to the A1 version. Still researching the differences. At some point, the A2 stainless steel tank was installed and that tag says 1987. Unknown if it’s a manufactured date or installed...

www.steelsoldiers.com

Or look over at e-trailer.com the folks over at steelsoldiers seem to use 7-8,000lb models.

All the best,

Peter

Pretty sure 7-8k are way overkill, but they have the right "heavy duty" look to them to match the rest of the trailer, and the price difference isn't large between the wimpy looking (but sufficient) 2-3k units and a 7-8k unit (factor of two in price perhaps).

I'm thinking of using a swivel mount jack, with two mounts - one for when the jack is needed, right up by the tongue, and one where the jack will be more out of the way for "travel"/trailer-in-use.

This bulldog unit has a drop leg, so you can get a bunch of extension just by pulling a pin and extending it, and then crank the last bit - useful when the mount is about 35" off the ground in the first place. It goes from (bracket height) ~13" to 41":

(https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Jack/Bulldog/BD190758.html)
It's "only" 5K, but the entire water tank is squarely over the axle and doesn't figure into the tongue weight - unless you're pointed downhill, then you get some of it. Still, 5K of lift capacity is significant overkill (and the static capacity is greater yet - 8K). This is the bulldog brand so should be pretty solid.

 

[alexpops]

harbor freight has a coupon out for their 10K drop leg jack @$129.99 until 8/15 ... regular price $159.99. Seems to get good reviews & looks like the one on my Kaufman 15K trailer.

 

[ponytug]

Pretty sure 7-8k are way overkill, but they have the right "heavy duty" look to them to match the rest of the trailer, and the price difference isn't large between the wimpy looking (but sufficient) 2-3k units and a 7-8k unit (factor of two in price perhaps).

I'm thinking of using a swivel mount jack, with two mounts - one for when the jack is needed, right up by the tongue, and one where the jack will be more out of the way for "travel"/trailer-in-use.

This bulldog unit has a drop leg, so you can get a bunch of extension just by pulling a pin and extending it, and then crank the last bit - useful when the mount is about 35" off the ground in the first place. It goes from (bracket height) ~13" to 41":
View attachment 884523
(https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Jack/Bulldog/BD190758.html)
It's "only" 5K, but the entire water tank is squarely over the axle and doesn't figure into the tongue weight - unless you're pointed downhill, then you get some of it. Still, 5K of lift capacity is significant overkill (and the static capacity is greater yet - 8K). This is the bulldog brand so should be pretty solid.

I really like that swing away two position design, especially for off road trailers.

Do you have the M149A2, with the stainless tank?

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

I really like that swing away two position design, especially for off road trailers.

Do you have the M149A2, with the stainless tank?

All the best,

Peter

Yes, that's the one.

I'm very gradually setting it up to use as a fire water tank / pump / hose trailer... mostly as an interesting project, because if a serious fire comes, I'll park it in my open cut grass meadow and let anyone who feels like sticking around use it, because I at least currently have fire insurance and my part in fire protection against an apocalyptic fire ends with following evacuation orders!

Otherwise I'll have it on hand when I have burn piles, or next time my neighbor catches his land on fire - we're at 3x now, two years ago I was hogging nearby when he decided lighting a big blackberry bramble on fire to clear it out was a good idea and I scraped a fire line and shoved another bramble out of the way (hey brambles are all green on the outside! so they're not going to burn really hot right???). I was >this close< to calling the FD but we managed to keep it together.

I figure that the final result - 400g stainless tank, bombproof trailer, Davey fire pump, 100' booster hose w/ manual reel - will be worth far more as a package if I want to sell it than I put into it, so it's a fun project that's not likely to be a money pit even if I never use it. Plan is to have it carry suction line to refill from the pond or irrigation canal using the on-board pump, and/or be able to spray water while sucking from the refill ports. It'll be interesting to see how much water spraying the pump's gas tank supports.

 

[ericm979]

Sounds like a cool project! Perfect for when you're burning brush or at a controlled burn.

 

[ning]

Sounds like a cool project! Perfect for when you're burning brush or at a controlled burn.

Going to have to make sure I don't get overconfident because of it! *oh i'll just burn that off, i can always just spray it down*

 

[ponytug]

I would consider adding an inductor port on the fill side. Something like "Drench" that wets water dramatically increases the fire effectiveness. You could also use it to put down some amount of retardant, if you ever had enough warning.

I have a fire pump that doesn't hit the tops of the trees here. I would check the Davey model to get enough pressure for what you want to do.

I am sure that the complete package will sell for more than what you paid into it, especially in your area.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Too many Kubotas]

I got tired not only of the heavy and bulky jack, but also of the very heavy fenders, springs, and wheels.

Had a basic trailer jack, cut down a 7K trailer axle I had, bought some normal trailer springs and hangers, then bolted on leftover Ram DRW tires and wheels.

Always liked the water buffalo, but like it much more after the modifications. A pump etc. is in the works, for the same basic usage.

 

[ning]

The Davey pump will do over 150psi at above 20gpm so I'm looking forward to seeing how far away from a fire I can drench it.

Foam/wetting should probably be added after the pump as far as I know. Some foam setups are very expensive but I'll look into wetting agents.

 

[ponytug]

I would not use most foams, unless you are sure that they are 100% biodegradable. You do not PFAS and related chemicals on your land, in your water, and your animals. There are some protein based foams, but the foam lifetime is pretty short, so unless you plan on being prepared to fight petroleum fires, not much use in my view.

I mentioned wetting agents (they are basically detergent), and the phosphate based retardants that are basically phosphate fertilizer and iron oxide for color (e.g. Phos-check), because they can be added to the tank, and both are readily degradable so they aren't a hazard later. The phosphate on biomaterial, grass wood, etc., cause the material to char rather than burn. It is used in fire resistant coatings as well, though wood is usually treated with boron to make wood fire resistant. (All that pink plywood going up in Paradise is almost certainly boron treated.)

All the best,

Peter

 

[WM75Guy]

We added a gallon bottle of dish detergent to the 500 gallon tank on our brush trucks when we refilled. Cheaper than Class A foam. A local company that manufactured cleaning products supplied us with their rejects off the line for free.

 

[ning]

We added a gallon bottle of dish detergent to the 500 gallon tank on our brush trucks when we refilled. Cheaper than Class A foam. A local company that manufactured cleaning products supplied us with their rejects off the line for free.

I was reading a forum for FD type guys and many mentioned tossing in a "glug" of Dawn into a skid tank. Seems like about the right thing, it's not super sudsy so it won't literally foam but as you mentioned we're not trying to put out an oil slick on fire here and it'll allow the water to actually wet stuff and not just bounce off. There was a note that a pump could "chug" a bit if foaming happened in the tank and the pump pickup sucked some foam in but with a bottom-tank pickup and a decent amount of water in the tank that really shouldn't be happening.

Phos-Check is about $220/5 gallons shipped. Application rates state 0.3-0.5% "direct attack", 1% "exposure protection"/"brush pretreatment".
Assuming a 1% rate, a 400 gallon tank needs 4 gallons.
Kinda pricey; maybe someday buy some and have it on hand in case a real fire shows up and then chuck it in the tank... use Dawn in the meantime.

 

[ponytug]

I was reading a forum for FD type guys and many mentioned tossing in a "glug" of Dawn into a skid tank. Seems like about the right thing, it's not super sudsy so it won't literally foam but as you mentioned we're not trying to put out an oil slick on fire here and it'll allow the water to actually wet stuff and not just bounce off. There was a note that a pump could "chug" a bit if foaming happened in the tank and the pump pickup sucked some foam in but with a bottom-tank pickup and a decent amount of water in the tank that really shouldn't be happening.

Phos-Check is about $220/5 gallons shipped. Application rates state 0.3-0.5% "direct attack", 1% "exposure protection"/"brush pretreatment".
Assuming a 1% rate, a 400 gallon tank needs 4 gallons.
Kinda pricey; maybe someday buy some and have it on hand in case a real fire shows up and then chuck it in the tank... use Dawn in the meantime.

Yes, Phos-check LC95A itself is pricey. If you look around online, you can find the proportions.... Essentially, it is ammonium polyphosphate adjusted not to be too basic, with some "performance additives".

https://www.fs.usda.gov/t-d/programs/wfcs/retardants/current/ret/phos/lc-95a_r.htm

https://www.fs.usda.gov/t-d/programs/wfcs/retardants/current/msds/phos/lc95a.pdf

As far as I can tell the composition has evolved slightly since 1962, but the essential piece seems to be ammonium (poly)phosphate. There are a ton of publications on tweaks to improve efficacy, but the mix seems to me to be pretty much the same ammonium polyphosphate, a sticking agent (clay or something like guar gum), rust, and your favorite detergent (e.g. Dawn). Adding things like clay help it stick to vegetation, and rust helps crews see where it has been applied.

The Forest Service was an early customer to require retardant material to be biodegradable, e.g. no PFAS.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

Yes, Phos-check LC95A itself is pricey. If you look around online, you can find the proportions.... Essentially, it is ammonium polyphosphate adjusted not to be too basic, with some "performance additives".

https://www.fs.usda.gov/t-d/programs/wfcs/retardants/current/ret/phos/lc-95a_r.htm

https://www.fs.usda.gov/t-d/programs/wfcs/retardants/current/msds/phos/lc95a.pdf

As far as I can tell the composition has evolved slightly since 1962, but the essential piece seems to be ammonium (poly)phosphate. There are a ton of publications on tweaks to improve efficacy, but the mix seems to me to be pretty much the same ammonium polyphosphate, a sticking agent (clay or something like guar gum), rust, and your favorite detergent (e.g. Dawn). Adding things like clay help it stick to vegetation, and rust helps crews see where it has been applied.

The Forest Service was an early customer to require retardant material to be biodegradable, e.g. no PFAS.

All the best,

Peter

There's also a corrosion inhibitor, that's kind of key. It's probably in the trade secrets part.

 

[ponytug]

There's also a corrosion inhibitor, that's kind of key. It's probably in the trade secrets part.

Not that I know what is in Phos-Check, but I would point out that ammonium phosphate itself is a known corrosion inhibitor. Phos-check is pH 5-6.5 per the above MSDS document. Would a corrosion inhibitor help? Probably. Maybe. For a home user who mixes a batch sprays it and rinses the system out an hour or two later? I doubt it would have much effect.
As an example, Carus sells a water corrosion inhibitor to utilities that is pH 5-6.5 sodium phosphate.

https://www.carusllc.com/wp-content/uploads/DW-AQUA-MAG-Data-Sheet.pdf

IIRC, their patent(s) read pretty much like the MSDS, though at the moment, I can't recall if a detergent was called out. Regardless, one would want a detergent to help the agent wet the material and get the phosphate into the dry matter.

The makers of Phos-check deal mostly with agencies, and I would bet that their past performance (great performance, IMO) gets them lots of repeat sales. (We owe our house to Phos-check LC95) That said, their marketing literature reads long on fluff to me.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

Not that I know what is in Phos-Check, but I would point out that ammonium phosphate itself is a known corrosion inhibitor. Phos-check is pH 5-6.5 per the above MSDS document. Would a corrosion inhibitor help? Probably. Maybe. For a home user who mixes a batch sprays it and rinses the system out an hour or two later? I doubt it would have much effect.
As an example, Carus sells a water corrosion inhibitor to utilities that is pH 5-6.5 sodium phosphate.

https://www.carusllc.com/wp-content/uploads/DW-AQUA-MAG-Data-Sheet.pdf

IIRC, their patent(s) read pretty much like the MSDS, though at the moment, I can't recall if a detergent was called out. Regardless, one would want a detergent to help the agent wet the material and get the phosphate into the dry matter.

The makers of Phos-check deal mostly with agencies, and I would bet that their past performance (great performance, IMO) gets them lots of repeat sales. (We owe our house to Phos-check LC95) That said, their marketing literature reads long on fluff to me.

All the best,

Peter

I'm not sure about mixing a batch spray; I suppose you could keep the phos-check on hand and only toss it into the tank if a big fire comes (possibly spray the house down lol). I expect I'll keep the 400 gallon tank full most of the time, fire or no.

I wonder if the phos-check would mind being in water with detergent?