Putting in a pond questions

   / Putting in a pond questions #1  

etpm

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We got a bid yesterday on someone putting in a pond for us. 34 grand! Yikes! Too much for us so we want to do it ourselves. The pond we want is to be about 40 by 60 feet and 3 feet deep. I have a Case 580 CK backhoe and a Yanmar YM2310 that will be used for the excavation. I'm sure I will have plenty of questions but the first one is whether to use bentonite or a rubber liner. I don't know if plastic liners are available. My wife wants to do the liner installation if we go that way. Like me she has no idea what is involved with putting a liner in. Actually, that's not true. I have seen pictures of a rubber liner being laid down and the seams being glued or heat sealed. But that's all I know. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #2  
Unless it is 100% out of sight, explore the legal issues before digging. It may be nothing, or it may be a nightmare.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions
  • Thread Starter
#3  
I will check with the county about digging but I don't foresee any problems there. Especially after talking with my wife about the cost of pond liner and evaporation loss the size has shrunk considerably. So now maybe 15 by 20 feet. I knew it would shrink.
Thanks,
Eric
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #4  
   / Putting in a pond questions #6  
We got a bid yesterday on someone putting in a pond for us. 34 grand! Yikes! Too much for us so we want to do it ourselves. The pond we want is to be about 40 by 60 feet and 3 feet deep. I have a Case 580 CK backhoe and a Yanmar YM2310 that will be used for the excavation. I'm sure I will have plenty of questions but the first one is whether to use bentonite or a rubber liner. I don't know if plastic liners are available. My wife wants to do the liner installation if we go that way. Like me she has no idea what is involved with putting a liner in. Actually, that's not true. I have seen pictures of a rubber liner being laid down and the seams being glued or heat sealed. But that's all I know. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
The problem with lining dams or ponds with clay is that the clay needs to be compacted to be effective. Just putting in loose clay soil doesn't work to seal the bottom and sides.
The compaction needs to be done in fairly thin lifts and at a specific range of water content in the clay. Too wet or dry and it just will not compact.

Hitting the right percent water is pretty easy when the project is large like a reservoir. There the wet area can be confined and compaction equipment brought in to work the rest. So clay is the way to go when the project is large.
On something the size of a pond the problem I've seen is that the center area remains wet and the water gets splashed around. The clay stays sloppy and won't compact. Now if it is a seasonal pond you are working on, and has a flattisj bottom you can drain....so as to get in there when the water content is correct for the clay to compact.... then you fo stand a better chance with clay.

I don't know anything at all about the liners. Let us know what you find out

For more info on clay, get hold of a soil mechanics book. It is fascinating how clay modifies soil strength and makes it into a workable material.
Berry and Reid wrote a good intro soil mechanics book with chapters on clay some 40 years ago. Their insights are amazing..

rScotty
 
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   / Putting in a pond questions #7  
I put one in on the other side of the country (upstate NY) about 30 years ago with my 1951 Ford 8n and 3 point pond scoop. I paid $1200 for the tractor (from the widow of the original owner), and $175 for the scoop. The pond was 32’ x 22’ x 6 ft deep. It took me about 50 hours to dig with that, and that old tractor needed a valve job when I finished (cost me $375).

I didn’t get any permits. You can’t see it from the road. I was a little worried about its proximity to a natural gas line right of way, that crosses our farm, but I didn’t have any issues with that.

We had a severe drought about 10 summers ago and it dried up completely. By that time, I had a newer 4wd diesel tractor (John Deere 4120). I drove that down into it and scooped out 20 years of sediment, and dug it down 2 ft deeper into the clay, with the 400X front loader on the John Deere.

Now it’s 8 ft deep and it has not dried up since I cleaned out and deepened it. It holds a decent population of bluegills (ducks must have brought them in). I added 4 largemouth bass a week ago but one of them didn’t survive.
IMG_5208.jpeg

IMG_4005.jpeg

IMG_5201.jpeg


I dug the pond on a very dry summer, at the lowest point in our farm. That spot always seemed to be wet and I hit solid clay about 5 ft down. I used that clay to line the banks.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #8  
I will check with the county about digging but I don't foresee any problems there. Especially after talking with my wife about the cost of pond liner and evaporation loss the size has shrunk considerably. So now maybe 15 by 20 feet. I knew it would shrink.
Thanks,
Eric
Man that shrunk fast, like when I jump in cold water.
15x20 - a simple swimming pool liner or an old billboard vinyl should do.
Might be able to do it for $100.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #9  
Be sure to calculate annual evapotranspiration.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #10  
I put one in on the other side of the country (upstate NY) about 30 years ago with my 1951 Ford 8n and 3 point pond scoop. I paid $1200 for the tractor (from the widow of the original owner), and $175 for the scoop. The pond was 32’ x 22’ x 6 ft deep. It took me about 50 hours to dig with that, and that old tractor needed a valve job when I finished (cost me $375).

I didn’t get any permits. You can’t see it from the road. I was a little worried about its proximity to a natural gas line right of way, that crosses our farm, but I didn’t have any issues with that.

We had a severe drought about 10 summers ago and it dried up completely. By that time, I had a newer 4wd diesel tractor (John Deere 4120). I drove that down into it and scooped out 20 years of sediment, and dug it down 2 ft deeper into the clay, with the 400X front loader on the John Deere.

Now it’s 8 ft deep and it has not dried up since I cleaned out and deepened it. It holds a decent population of bluegills (ducks must have brought them in). I added 4 largemouth bass a week ago but one of them didn’t survive.
View attachment 929912
View attachment 929914
View attachment 929913

I dug the pond on a very dry summer, at the lowest point in our farm. That spot always seemed to be wet and I hit solid clay about 5 ft down. I used that clay to line the banks.

That's a nice pond. And thanks for pointing out that there is more than one way to make a pond. Around here we dig a hole and then bring in truckloads of bentonite to seal our sandy soil. There is no native clay. Making a pond becomes a whole lot easier if the site already has compacted clay that just needs scooping out.
rScotty
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #11  
Unless it is 100% out of sight, explore the legal issues before digging. It may be nothing, or it may be a nightmare.
A property in a town near me had an obviously manmade pond for many years. It briefly disappeared and then reappeared. I worked with a guy who lived near the property and he said the owner was tired of the pond and cut the bank and drained it. Then the DEP made him rebuild the pond because he destroyed wetland, made changes without getting a permit, or committed some other sin. These days when the government wants to claim the ability to regulate mud puddles it's a little risky.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #12  
I have read many of the pond threads on this forum. Before you completely dismiss having someone else dig the pond consider the realities.

Do the math on the amount of dirt to move, how much you can move in each load with your equipment, where you will put it, and what the cycle times would be. Sometimes when those numbers are actually calculated the contractor price doesn't look so bad.

Not saying it can't be a do it yourself project, just know what you are getting into.

Doug in SW IA
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #13  
We got a bid yesterday on someone putting in a pond for us. 34 grand! Yikes! Too much for us so we want to do it ourselves. The pond we want is to be about 40 by 60 feet and 3 feet deep. I have a Case 580 CK backhoe and a Yanmar YM2310 that will be used for the excavation. I'm sure I will have plenty of questions but the first one is whether to use bentonite or a rubber liner. I don't know if plastic liners are available. My wife wants to do the liner installation if we go that way. Like me she has no idea what is involved with putting a liner in. Actually, that's not true. I have seen pictures of a rubber liner being laid down and the seams being glued or heat sealed. But that's all I know. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

I have read many of the pond threads on this forum. Before you completely dismiss having someone else dig the pond consider the realities.

Do the math on the amount of dirt to move, how much you can move in each load with your equipment, where you will put it, and what the cycle times would be. Sometimes when those numbers are actually calculated the contractor price doesn't look so bad.

Not saying it can't be a do it yourself project, just know what you are getting into.


Doug in SW IA

Wanted to tack on to what Dougtrr2 was implying, but in reference to liners - specifically installation of bentonite liners.

I helped my neighbor re-line part of his man-made pond a number of years ago due to it developing a seep at the base of the retention wall (Pond was originally constructed by damning up the opening between two ridges on his property)

Long story short - to accomplish sealing the leak he bought rolls of bentonite matting (like 15' X however many feet long). Due to the weight involved with each of those mats it was an absolute scary nightmare getting them to the job site, positioning and then unrolling them into place.

Not saying what you are attempting to do is un-accomplishable... rather wanted to add a possible data point to your considerations of completing your project without a contractor.

Best luck!
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #14  
We got a bid yesterday on someone putting in a pond for us. 34 grand! Yikes! Too much for us so we want to do it ourselves. The pond we want is to be about 40 by 60 feet and 3 feet deep. I have a Case 580 CK backhoe and a Yanmar YM2310 that will be used for the excavation. I'm sure I will have plenty of questions but the first one is whether to use bentonite or a rubber liner. I don't know if plastic liners are available. My wife wants to do the liner installation if we go that way. Like me she has no idea what is involved with putting a liner in. Actually, that's not true. I have seen pictures of a rubber liner being laid down and the seams being glued or heat sealed. But that's all I know. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
What type of soil do you have? A liner is freakishly expensive, and there is always the possibility that it will tear or leak for some unpredictable reason. Bentonite helps sometimes, in some soil types, if it's applied thick enough, and worked into the soil properly. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with Bentonite for it to not work, and most of the time, it was never the correct material to use.

In ponds with fish, almost 90 percent of their life is spent in the top 4 feet of the water. When figuring out how deep to go, you have to know how much will evaporate in the Summer to be sure you have at least 4 feet of water. The other issue with shallow water is oxygen in the water for the fish. You will need to create oxygen if the water is shallow with a water fall, or an air bubbler. And if it gets really hot where you live, the fish will need deeper water to stay cool.

If the pond is just for animals to drink out of, or for something to look at, 3 feet might be OK, but if you lose 2 feet from evaporation, it might be not be so nice to look at unless you have a constant source of water to add to it.

About ten years ago, here in East Texas, we had a very hot summer with almost no rain. My big pond dropped 8 feet. It was 14 feet deep on the deep side, six feet deep on the shallow side. My fish survived, but it was pretty scary to see it down so far. Since then, I added 2 feet to my dam to increase the amount of water I can lose to evaporation. My small pond was just 6 feet deep at it's deepest, and most of it was 4 feet deep. It just about totally dried up when I drove my backhoe into it and dug a big, deep hole. I called it the swimming pool, because that's sort of what it looked like when I dug it The small amount of water left in my pond went into that hole, along with hundreds of fingerlings that where still alive. All my mature fish died, included over 60 catfish that where in the ten pound range. They all died on the same day, when there was about a foot of water left in the pond. There wasn't any oxygen left in the water for them, and the water temps where too high. I never saw so many vultures before!!!

Digging the pond with your backhoe is very doable. My small pond is 3/4 of an acre, and I dug it with my backhoe. Most of the work was hauling the dirt out of there one yard at a time. The farther I moved the dirt, the longer it took. I spent several months doing this, and figured 4 feet was deep enough, along with that lower area of 6 feet. When the pond dried up, I dug it down another two feet, plus the swimming pool. That was a good month of moving dirt just outside the pond, and piling it up right next to the pond. It took me another two years to finally get all that dirt hauled off to another area, where most of it is still there. I use what I need, when I need it, but it's been there over a decade, and probably will still be there ten years from now.

My big pond is all red clay, and the very best soil for a pond. My small pond started out with red clay, but then I hit a grey clay that was super hard, and fortunately, water proof too, but it's not like the red clay. You cannot compact it after you dig it, it just dries up and flakes off. When left alone in the ground, it's been great.

Before buying a liner, it might be worthwhile to dig a test hole to see how well it holds water. Dig something like a 20x20 hole six to 8 feet deep, and leave it for a year to see what happens. Does it fill up with runoff? How long does it stay full of water? Then look at your land and see if you can increase how much water goes into it. I built up my roads on my land so they catch rain water and diverts it to my ponds.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #15  
Before buying a liner, it might be worthwhile to dig a test hole to see how well it holds water. Dig something like a 20x20 hole six to 8 feet deep,
Eddie - did you read? "15 by 20 feet." and 3 ft deep.
A 20x20x6D test hole would be great overkill:)
I will check with the county about digging but I don't foresee any problems there. Especially after talking with my wife about the cost of pond liner and evaporation loss the size has shrunk considerably. So now maybe 15 by 20 feet.
I have yet to see the OP's reason for the pond. Given his location and climate it might just be a frog pond. :)
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #16  
Eddie - did you read? "15 by 20 feet." and 3 ft deep.
A 20x20x6D test hole would be great overkill:)

I have yet to see the OP's reason for the pond. Given his location and climate it might just be a frog pond. :)
I guess I missed that. I probably over read what he was wanting to do.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #17  
Aquatic plants can root and grow within the upper 4 feet of a pond. There is not enough light penetration after 4 feet.

Based on what I am reading this pond at this size and depth will be completely overwhelmed by aquatic plants.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #18  
Also beware the County can find unpermitted ponds with aerial photos and drones now. Just sayin ...
 
   / Putting in a pond questions #19  
Yeah, 15x20x3 would be a puddle that would be dry all the time here.
 
   / Putting in a pond questions
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Well Ladies and Gents, I am still working on the pond. Today I started painting prototype outlines. My wife was worried about the topology and I said don't worry about that because once we start digging and moving dirt everything will change. We just need an outline we like. This week I will be going to the county seat to talk about permits. We have pretty much decided to use a pond liner instead of bentonite. I have a ground water supply, a shallow well that came with the property, that I don't use at all at this time, that should be able to supply all the water to make up for evaporation. If my calculations are correct. Let's hope that's so. Anyway, I'm getting excited for the earth works to start. I will start taking pictures once we have the outline finalized. Thanks everyone for your input and advice.
Eric
 

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