Yander
Elite Member
Same for Ohio.
How much do you care about pre emissions
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paulsharvey
Super Member
I dont think anywhere in the SE US does emissions checks, although maybe Charlotte or Atlanta; but NC and GA don't, nor does FLa.
I'm not against clean air, but I don't think diesel engines are a problem for clean air. I know it does kinda hurt many of us to say, but maybe some of the enivro regs from 1980s have helped. Things are a lot better now; the problem is, IMO, the agency's can't help but want to inflict more stringent regs every year.
Now, CDL vehicles are always subject to getting pulled over and harassed.
I'm not against clean air, but I don't think diesel engines are a problem for clean air. I know it does kinda hurt many of us to say, but maybe some of the enivro regs from 1980s have helped. Things are a lot better now; the problem is, IMO, the agency's can't help but want to inflict more stringent regs every year.
Now, CDL vehicles are always subject to getting pulled over and harassed.
newbury
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IIRC one of the prime problems with DIESEL engines was what I call "the little old lady syndrome".
There was a saying, something like "sox, nox and rocks".
"Sox", or sulfur compounds, and "Nox", or nitrogen products, contributed to acid rain. There were places in the Northeast US where the acid rain was actually changing the hemlock forests. But they were invisible gases.
"Rocks" or particulates were VISIBLE. Every time someone "rolls coal" they are spitting out a lot of particulates. And in the northeast during the wintertime the snow captures and displays said particulates.
The "little old ladies" might not understand the chemistry behind acid rain but sure the h-e-double-L could see the "dirt" or "rocks" on the snow. AND for those that still practiced the ancient art of hanging laundry out to dry (after washing) KNEW it was making the laundry dirty while it dried.
And "little old ladies" DO NOT want to hang dirty laundry.
And you might not consider Virginia in the SE but most of it's NE section requires emission inspection.
There was a saying, something like "sox, nox and rocks".
"Sox", or sulfur compounds, and "Nox", or nitrogen products, contributed to acid rain. There were places in the Northeast US where the acid rain was actually changing the hemlock forests. But they were invisible gases.
"Rocks" or particulates were VISIBLE. Every time someone "rolls coal" they are spitting out a lot of particulates. And in the northeast during the wintertime the snow captures and displays said particulates.
The "little old ladies" might not understand the chemistry behind acid rain but sure the h-e-double-L could see the "dirt" or "rocks" on the snow. AND for those that still practiced the ancient art of hanging laundry out to dry (after washing) KNEW it was making the laundry dirty while it dried.
And "little old ladies" DO NOT want to hang dirty laundry.
And you might not consider Virginia in the SE but most of it's NE section requires emission inspection.
LouNY
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The so called acid rain was shoved so far out of proportion and down our throats by idiots. When my kids were in school the "science" classes would go out and get water and soil samples and then test them for the acidity.
These liberal teachers would then carry on about the "acid" rain destroying everything in the Adirondacks. What a bunch of bull. I told my girls to get a sample from the dirt and pine duff under trees and then test that, lo and behold it's high acidity from the evergreens. And then I told them to check the acidity of the leaf mold under the big Oaks, damn oak leafs are also highly acidic how can that be.
These liberal teachers would then carry on about the "acid" rain destroying everything in the Adirondacks. What a bunch of bull. I told my girls to get a sample from the dirt and pine duff under trees and then test that, lo and behold it's high acidity from the evergreens. And then I told them to check the acidity of the leaf mold under the big Oaks, damn oak leafs are also highly acidic how can that be.
arto98607
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Yes Saudi's produce a lot of oil but couple of countries produce fair bit more.
Here is a list of top 20 oil producing countries as of Dec 2023
ultrarunner
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California has had emission controls since the 60's and unleaded since 1973.
Heavy industry shuttered or leaving is credited for improving air quality plus the ban on wood heat, etc.
IndyIan
Veteran Member
Sometimes you've got to know, that there's lots of stuff you don't know about... I'm no expert but some googling turned up lots of peer reviewed papers that show it was a real problem, maybe not in your backyard specifically, but in regions with landscapes that can't buffer large volumes of acid, acid rain made many lakes lifeless...
Acidic Deposition in the Northeastern United States: Sources and Inputs, Ecosystem Effects, and Management Strategies: The effects of acidic deposition in the northeastern United States include the acidification of soil and water, which stresses terrestrial and aquatic biota
I'm not for limitless pollution controls on everything immediately, but gradually moving towards less waste and pollution technology in general is a good idea.
LouNY
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Follow the money!
Very much of the so called acid rain was in fact from mother nature but that doesn't generate revenue or headlines.
IndyIan
Veteran Member
Dead lakes were dead lakes, and now many are not after some reasonable pollution controls were put in place? Doing things better in terms of pollution costs somebody something, but looking back, don't you think its worth it in this case?
For me, in southern ontario, we used to have a big coal fired power plant and we used to have dozens of smog days bad enough to affect sensitive peoples health. Now the plant is gone and we have hardly any smog days. Maybe electricity is 3% more for having no coal plants, but that's fine with me....
Without your health, you have not much, so I thinks its worth working towards less polluting technologies.
5030
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You got that right, every weigh station and roadside inspection always includes a check for emissions compliance and it's easy to tell, all a driver has to do is throttle up the engine and if black smokes comes out the exhaust, they fail. Of courde that don't apply to older units like I own. My Cat always smokes when throttled up but the inspectors know it'a pre emissions engine as they have not only the date of manufacture but a complete list of engines and injection systems on their laptop computers.
In my Western Star, all I have is a lap safety belt, no shoulder belt and they know that as well and never ask about it.
5030
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I still maintain that the owners that modify their pickup trucks to 'Roll Coal' are the biggest offenders and should be fined or their trucks confiscated for it. My 97, 7.3 is modified with a full Gale Banks kit and it don't 'roll coal' ever. Maybe a puff when working hard, but that is it. Gale knows how to extract additional power with out excessive black (particulate) smoke constantly. In fact my Banks Kit carries the EPA certification tag for my year of engine and it's displayed on the radiator support for anyone to see.
Snobdds
Super Member
Just because there is correlation, it does not mean causation.
There are many things in nature that are acidic. There are also things in nature that counteract acid.
I think we should be careful with the broad conclusions.
IndyIan
Veteran Member
Well yes, but also its pretty reasonable to assume putting less sulfur dioxide into the air, causes less acids with sulfur in them to form in rain?
See figures 4 and 7 in this paper.
The pH of precipitation isn't the only factor in a lakes pH, but for many of them it could be the only that that has changed over 150 years.
The abstract of this paper also highlights the decrease in pollution falling from sky since more strict pollution controls have been put in place.
Snobdds
Super Member
You're still drawing assumptions and attributing them to a cause. "Pretty reasonable to assume" is nonsense in this discussion.
Have you ever heard the expression..."the solution to pollution is through dilution".
Rain, not run off as acids drop out of suspension, is such a small % of a waters overall volume, is in direct violation to what we humans know to counter act pollution. Dropping the equillivent of a drop of acid in a swimming pool is not going to kill off all life.
Also think of this. Humans and life ingest acid stuff all the time. Vinegars are great in salads, and they are acidic. Life can handle more acid than some scientist will lead you to believe. After all...it's a natural byproduct.
IndyIan
Veteran Member
Respectfully, do some reading on it, as you don't know what you don't know, and that goes for everyone with most topics.
Did you read the abstract of the first article? They are estimating past pH of the lake based on which diatoms were surviving or perishing due to the recent increased acidity of the lake. Also there is large difference between us eating something acidic, vs a fish or frog living in it. Imagine if the great smog of london was permanent? Great Smog of London - Wikipedia Probably its something like that for water creatures in water that is too acidic...
My Dad quotes the "solution for pollution, is dilution" but knowing it as outdated thinking... The world is big, but we've found out its not big enough for that... Taller smoke stacks do dilute more, but in many cases, we have used up all the no consequences dilution available and now we have to just pollute less.
I'm no expert, but many small lakes do "renew" their water in days or months or a couple years.
Lake retention time - Wikipedia
DarkBlack
Elite Member
Getting pretty deep. Let me get my tall boots….
Snobdds
Super Member
Respectfully, do some reading on it, as you don't know what you don't know, and that goes for everyone with most topics.
Did you read the abstract of the first article? They are estimating past pH of the lake based on which diatoms were surviving or perishing due to the recent increased acidity of the lake. Also there is large difference between us eating something acidic, vs a fish or frog living in it. Imagine if the great smog of london was permanent? Great Smog of London - Wikipedia Probably its something like that for water creatures in water that is too acidic...
My Dad quotes the "solution for pollution, is dilution" but knowing it as outdated thinking... The world is big, but we've found out its not big enough for that... Taller smoke stacks do dilute more, but in many cases, we have used up all the no consequences dilution available and now we have to just pollute less.
I'm no expert, but many small lakes do "renew" their water in days or months or a couple years.
Some lakes in the rock of the Adirondacks would rely mostly on rainfall and surface run off directly, so their renewal time from precipitation might be quite short.Lake retention time - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
You assume (again) I don't know what I'm talking about or read up on it.
The pollution in the air was nitrogen oxides, nitrogen and oxygen. Fertilizer. It is considered a weak acid that is not harmful to life, in fact in large quantities it stimulates life.
What do you think happens in a catalytic converter? It converts it to nitrogen dioxide by attaching an extra oxygen molecule.
London fog was particulates.
I think you should spend some more time reading up and get back to me when you can make distinctions of what substances were are even talking about.
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paulsharvey
Super Member
I dont think we have a pollution problem in the western world at this point. Air, water, even road side trash, is Way less than it was in late 80s/early 90s. I do think they keep trying to squeeze a tiny bit more (or less really) out of a shrinking pool.
In the 60s/70s were things out of control; yes! Did some regulations need to be placed, also yes. Have we gotten to the point that we have gotten to the 80% better, and them trying to squeeze the last 15-20% going to not worth the cost; IMO also yes.
Kinda like cars. Sure, we have gone from 12mpg being pretty normal for a 160hp truck, to 19-21 mpg being the norm for a half ton, making 420 hp, yep. Moving from 12 to 18; even at a 50% increase in cost, is worth it. Now, getting another 1-2 mpg, at another 50% increase in cost, definitely not.
In the 60s/70s were things out of control; yes! Did some regulations need to be placed, also yes. Have we gotten to the point that we have gotten to the 80% better, and them trying to squeeze the last 15-20% going to not worth the cost; IMO also yes.
Kinda like cars. Sure, we have gone from 12mpg being pretty normal for a 160hp truck, to 19-21 mpg being the norm for a half ton, making 420 hp, yep. Moving from 12 to 18; even at a 50% increase in cost, is worth it. Now, getting another 1-2 mpg, at another 50% increase in cost, definitely not.
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paulsharvey
Super Member
Assuming global warming is a fraud (which I'm 100% sure it is at this point; we haven't even reached Temps of the medieval warm period); what urgent environmental problems are we facing? Fresh water in some areas, yes, but that's not generally a pollution issue. Landfills overfilling, like they told us in school, zero signs of that. Running out of oil in next 50 years, nope. Acid rain, nope. Lithium shortage, no, they've discovered vast amounts in Chile, Boliva, Afghanistan, ect.
The only issues I really know, are mostly legacy issues; old landfills leaking contaminants, old pole pole treatment yards, old gas tanks left in the ground, old lead/asbestos. Yeah, there is a nuclear bomb in the ocean somewhere off S. Car allegedly dropped in an airforce incident; but that wouldn't go up, and it is probably no more than a blip in the ocean,
The only issues I really know, are mostly legacy issues; old landfills leaking contaminants, old pole pole treatment yards, old gas tanks left in the ground, old lead/asbestos. Yeah, there is a nuclear bomb in the ocean somewhere off S. Car allegedly dropped in an airforce incident; but that wouldn't go up, and it is probably no more than a blip in the ocean,
Topzide
Platinum Member
And don't get started on the gases released from a volcanic eruption! Just one, one event outputs more the we do on a year!
