Cummins engine that never was..

[Renze]

Apparently, Cummins wanted to make a V6 version of the V8 now used by Nissan:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/0612dp-new-cummins-v6-and-v8/

 

[aba4430]

Just FYI - Nissan stopped using the Cummins sourced V8 5-liter diesel in late 2019. There were numerous issues with the Titan HD diesel trucks. Starting in 2020 the HD's were equipped solely with the 5.6 liter VK56VD motors.

 

[Renze]

There were numerous issues with the Titan HD diesel trucks.

With the trucks, or with the engines ?

 

[aba4430]

Due to the engines.

 

[Tinhack]

Apparently, they haven't gotten around that problem with the VK56VD.

 

[aba4430]

The VK56VD had issues also until late 2019. The 2020 and beyond trucks with the VK56VD gassers are fine. I can link you to the specifics if you are interested. I had a non-hd 18 Pro-4X that I drove for ~43.5k miles. No issues. However my VK56VD engine was within the scope of the defect. I traded it in 2023 for a 23 Pro-4X non-hd again, and now have a bit under 19k miles on it. No issues. One of the most under rated trucks out there.

 

[Renze]

Due to the engines.

I didnt know that. There is one 5.0 Cummins at a grey market importer here in Holland, although ive never seen one.
Ram 1500 converted to propane is most popular here nowadays. Two or three in our town, as redneck status symbol.

Anyways, i found that article about Cummins V8 while searching for the origins of the VT-903-660 in the Bradley AFV, which apparently is the predecessor of the VT8-460 found in the Israeli M51 Sherman upgrade, which was a souped up V950 short stroke V8 for trucks in the era that people that were used to gas engines, preferred a high rpm short stroke V8 diesel over the turbocharged inline 6 NH series, though in class 8 trucks, demand for the V8 disappointed. Cummins just doesnt have luck with V8 configurations

 

[Hay Dude]

I just saw a Generator with a V-8 Cummins last week.

 

[Renze]

I just saw a Generator with a V-8 Cummins last week.

All the Cummins V8 engines were high rpm short stroke engines, to replace a gasoline engine in medium duty applications without overstraining existing drivelines.. So lots of noise and little low end torque, as opposed to the NT855. It is said that this idea embedded into the medium duty market that V8 wasnt made to last as long as an inline 6, contributed to the popularity of the 6BT powered Dodge compared to IH and GM V8 diesels...

Cummins started building these short stroke high rpm diesels in the UK too, but they didnt gain widespread acceptance untill they began building the L10, C8.3, B5.9 engines in the early 80s.
Krupp built those engines under license in Germany, which is why Krupp disappeared from the market: the Krupp 2 strokes ran 1 million km, yet the Cummins short stroke V8 was nothing but trouble. Krupp engineers solved the issues that plagued the Cummins designs too (worn cams and lifters) but it was too late for Krupp...

 

[BravoXray]

Anyways, i found that article about Cummins V8 while searching for the origins of the VT-903-660 in the Bradley AFV, which apparently is the predecessor of the VT8-460 found in the Israeli

A long time ago, I was at Weller Truck Parts in Grand Rapids, MI with a friend. He was looking to buy a Cummins VT8-430 to put in a Freightliner cabover, and Weller said they had several takeouts, and they were cheap. They actually had 10 or 12 of them in a pile, said he could have the whole pile for scrap price. The company that had bought trucks with them pulled them out and replaced them with NTC engines as they were maintenance and fuel hogs. HE didn't but one, but later he did buy a Mercedes V8 or V10 that he tried to get running for a couple of years, but never did.

 

[Renze]

He was looking to buy a Cummins VT8-430 to put in a Freightliner cabover, and Weller said they had several takeouts, and they were cheap.

From what i gather, the VT8-430 was the tutbocharged variant of the 1960-67 V-950 V8 for class 8 trucks, and the VT8-460 was the militarized version of the VT8-430 for the M50 Sherman upgrade. The current VT-903-660 in the Bradley is a version with slightly shorter stroke, enabling it to run 2800rpm at acceptable mean piston speed..

HE didn't but one, but later he did buy a Mercedes V8 or V10 that he tried to get running for a couple of years, but never did.

The Mercedes OM400 V series V6/8/10/12 were good engines, despite the earliest oddfire 90 degree V6 idled very rough. MTU still produces that design for special applications, though Mercedes itself has replaced them with the more modern inline 6 OM470 series emgines, also produced at Detroit Diesel.

 

[BravoXray]

A local aggregate hauler had a fleet of short nosed KW tractors pulling dump trailers back in the 70s and 80s with V903s in them. I don't remember if hey were turbocharged or not, was a long time ago, nut I do remember the drivers called them 90 nuthins.

If I remember correctly, the VT430 engines had the exhaust ports, manifolds and turbochargers on the inside of the V, but the naturally aspirated version had the conventional arrangement with the intakes on the inside of the V. I think they used the same heads, just a different camshaft to configure for that arrangement.

And then there were the bigass Cummins KTA19 engines.

 

[Renze]

I don't remember if hey were turbocharged or not, was a long time ago, nut I do remember the drivers called them 90 nuthins.

Krupp built million km two stroke diesels, that were outdated in Europe in the 60s. The Cummins V785 they started to build under license had cam and lifter issues, which Krupp engineers solved but their reputation was already damaged.. apparently all Cummins V8 engines had derogatory nicknames...

And then there were the bigass Cummins KTA19 engines.

I know them from.the Hitachi EX1200. Weight 2200kg, at 760hp it will last 30.000 hours between overhauls.

 

[pmsmechanic]

I just saw a Generator with a V-8 Cummins last week.

I was told that the only place a Cummins V8 lasted was on generators and boats. Constant speeds and constant loads. I really don't know why Cummins ever bothered with a V8.

 

[Renze]

I really don't know why Cummins ever bothered with a V8.

Short stroke, high rpm diesel to replace gasoline engines in medium trucks in the late 50s and 60s, when some customers that used gasoline engines before, were afraid of turbochargers, did not want to pay the upfront cost of a heavy duty diesel engine vs a big block gasser, or manufacturers who wanted an engine that could operate at higher engine speeds and lower torque, so that they could offer a diesel in front of their existing transmission and axle ratio.

In Europe it never caught on at all, because we didnt have big block gas powered trucks anyways. Diesel was standard on anything above 5 ton from the 50s onwards.

Many US Army surplus 5 ton REOs were beefed up with heavier springs, a liner stuffed inside the chassis rails, and a Daf diesel fitted, untill they ran out of REOs in the late 60s.

 

[Hay Dude]

I was told that the only place a Cummins V8 lasted was on generators and boats. Constant speeds and constant loads. I really don't know why Cummins ever bothered with a V8.

Haha
You opened a can of worms there
It's because like most other HD diesel manufacturers know:
In line 6 configurations are cheaper to produce, have stronger bottom ends, better longevity, better fuel economy, less moving parts, cheaper to fix and generally package better under most equipment hoods.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Haha
You opened a can of worms there
It's because like most other HD diesel manufacturers know:
In line 6 configurations are cheaper to produce, have stronger bottom ends, better longevity, better fuel economy, less moving parts, cheaper to fix and generally package better under most equipment hoods.

Apparently, CAT doesn't think so for their two biggest dozers, D10 and 11.

SR

 

[Hay Dude]

Apparently, CAT doesn't think so for their two biggest dozers, D10 and 11.

SR

Nevermind what CAT thinks. They are in business to make money off customers, not give them what is best for the customers bottom line. CAT is most expensive diesel to own/operate.
Plenty of other brands of huge dozers, tug boats and locomotives running much bigger in lines.

HD

 

[Renze]

In line 6 configurations are cheaper to produce, have stronger bottom ends, better longevity, better fuel economy, less moving parts, cheaper to fix and generally package better under most equipment hoods.

That all is true for the economy diesels sold in the USA next to the heavy duty inline 6es:
Cat had a 3208 and a 3406. Cummins a V903 and an 855. V555 and L10. Those were all oversquare designs redlining at 2600 to 3000rpm, usually not with wet cylinder liners, built as a cheaper alternative to their undersquare inline 6 counterparts.

Other V8 diesels such as the Mack E9, Scania DS16, Cat 3408, 3508, 3608, are built like the Volvo D16, Cat C18 inline sixes: All undersquare designs designed to be rebuilt and live on, unlike the aforementioned oversquare economy engines.

In over the road markets, V8 diesels got a bad name because they were designed to be a cheap and disposable alternative to the inline sixes. In the industrial market, the V8 was built asgood as any inline 6 so the V8 didnt get that reputation...

 

[Renze]

Plenty of other brands of huge dozers, tug boats and locomotives running much bigger in lines.

The Cummins KTA 23 is the biggest high speed diesel out there... and its already a square design (bore as large as the strokr is long) to keep piston speed in check. Cat C27 is two C13 cylinder banks on a common crankshaft (V12)

The 70 ton Komatsu D-375A uses a license built Cummins KTA23 inline 6, the 100 ton D-475 uses a license built Cummins QSK30 V12.
The 70 ton Liebherr PR776 uses a V12 as well, which uses an MAN block. It was developed by MAN in cooperation with Mercedes, and therefor shares bore and stroke with the Mercedes OM501 V6 and OM502 V8

The Fiat Allis FD50 uses a Cummins VT-1710 V12 which is a double NT855..

I honestly dont know any other manufacturers building D10 and D11 sized dozers...