Would you donate?

[D&D]

Just curious …. If it was a mosque that got flooded, would your decision to donate change?

Why or why not?

Seems like this thread mainly relates to who supports the religion.

I took the question as it relates to using the same location, not the religious sect

 

[2manyrocks]

Based on the damage to the tree line in the aftermath photo, I don't think 8' piers are going to get a new building elevated above the flood area. Plus, the trees and boulders that washed downstream in some areas knocked out well built bridge foundations.

 

[newbury]

If they rebuild there they need to elevate and build a good foundation.

500 year flood? 100 year flood? I’m a land surveyor and live within an hour of the Mississippi River. After various flood events I ran elevations all over the place, mainly for people that were getting money to elevate their homes. There have been at least 2 and maybe 3 events that were 100 year floods in a period of about 25 years.

Those flood events are all theoretical and after a major event they realize they aren’t something you can really count on.

A MAJOR problem is the change in the ability of watersheds to absorb a rainfall. with the increase in paved areas and the filling in of swamps a heavy rainfall event is multiplied.
It seems like 100 year floods are happening more often.
"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot".

 

[EddieWalker]

As a contractor, I've worked for a few churches in my area. All different. I think the people there are fantastic, both the ones that attend, and the ones running the church.

But I've also learned that nobody spends money wisely at a church. It's all based on a committee that is comprised of people with different emotions and feelings. A wall can be rotting away, but they will hire me to swap out working light fixtures for something more modern, or pretty. In my opinion, the ones I've dealt with, all behave like they are spending "free" money.

As far as building a new church where the old one was destroyed by the river, I would be surprised that a bank will loan them money to do this, or the County will allow it to happen. If neither are involved, and the church has enough cash on hand to do this, I just consider it future job security for Contractors in the area.

 

[EddieWalker]

Based on the damage to the tree line in the aftermath photo, I don't think 8' piers are going to get a new building elevated above the flood area. Plus, the trees and boulders that washed downstream in some areas knocked out well built bridge foundations.

From what I understand, this is exactly what happened in Houston when they had their bad flood. Subdivisions replaced fields without any way to move the water when it rained really hard.

When the worse storm since the 1950's happened, they blamed Global Warming and refused to consider that there wasn't any flooding when it happened in the 1950s. Or why it's Global Warming now, but it was Mother Nature 70 years ago.

At my place, my survey shows where the 100 year flood levels are at. I don't have any Code where I'm at, so I can build there if I have the cash, but no bank will loan to build in that area. In the last 20 years, the creek has exceeded the 100 year flood level twice!!!

 

[D&D]

But I've also learned that nobody spends money wisely at a church. It's all based on a committee that is comprised of people with different emotions and feelings. A wall can be rotting away, but they will hire me to swap out working light fixtures for something more modern, or pretty. In my opinion, the ones I've dealt with, all behave like they are spending "free" money.

That’s been my experience with churches, volunteer fire depts and a couple of clubs that I belong to.

 

[MossRoad]

The reasoning to build in the same spot is apparently it was a "500 year flood".

It also gets interesting because apparently some people in Tennessee believe that contrails of planes are being used to control the weather, and apparently the government caused the flooding in Eastern Tennessee because there is lithium in mountains and they (I guess the government) is apparently trying to get their hands on it.

Apparently contrails are so bad that the governor of Tennessee has outlawed them over the state...

Panel reopening to hear Lee's Tennessee farmland preservation bill

The Senate Energy, Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee is reopening to take up Gov. Bill Lee’s bill to preserve Tennessee farmland.

pro.stateaffairs.com

It was kind of interesting when I was there the other week and people were pointing out that you can see contrails pretty much all the time. I didn't want to ask why if it is now a law that they can't be over Tennessee why we saw a couple.

Apparently some in NC feel the same way...

Fact check: Is government seizing North Carolina lithium after Helene?

Some social media users said people engineered the hurricane to clear land in North Carolina to mine lithium, a metal used to power batteries for electric vehicles, smartphones and laptop computers.

www.wral.com

Oh boy......

Another 500 year flood can happen tomorrow. All it means is there's a .2% chance (1 in 500) that it can happen in ANY GIVEN YEAR!


Each flood is a one time event. It doesn't mean if you have one, there isn't gonna be another one for 500 years.


A good analogy to me is that even though the odds of winning the lottery are very high, some folks have hit it twice.


I don't know how that system of flood rating came about, but I wish they'd do away with it.

If you want to donate to their rebuild fund, tell em up front, you won't donate if they rebuild anywhere near the creek.

 

[drssg]

I didn't see an answer to whether they had flood insurance and whether it's feasible for them to get it for that location. I'm guessing not, on both accounts.

I also didn't see an indication as to whether they have a feasible option to build in another location. They would have to buy or lease that property, and that expense would have to be weighed against the possible expense of another flood.

 

[scootr]

I could not support such foolish spending. The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result.
Like building in a creek bed and not expecting to be flooded. The new church would have to be in a different location.

 

[Oaktree]

As far as building a new church where the old one was destroyed by the river, I would be surprised that a bank will loan them money to do this, or the County will allow it to happen.

And lotsa luck getting insurance on it.
The town I live in has no building permits or anything like that (other than septic, which is a state requirement). More than once someone has bought property a mile or more down a Class VI road thinking of building there only to find out no one will insure the property once it's built.

 

[garry1p]

Even if they had building insurance I doubt they had flood insurance so no coverage.

Would I donate probably it's doubtful they have a big enough congregation to rebuild without outside help.

I would hope they would build on another location but that is up to them.

Having said that, if they are the folks that play with snakes or holly rollers then nope.

 

[CliffordK]

I believe the premium for annual insurance including flood was $250,000.00! That small Church and their members need a place to worship, and that is what they have, so they are scraping together the money to try to rebuild.

Do you have a before photo of the church? My guess is they knew the rocky beach was there, but that it was covered with a few inches of dirt making it look like a picturesque lawn.

If the flood insurance is $250K, then somebody knows it is an accident waiting to happen.

People like to attach something sacred to an old church and the church location. Thus new churches are often built over the top of old churches. But ultimately it is just a building. My vote is to find a new location that isn't in a flood plain or a fire risk, and build back better. Perhaps even look at the hillside behind it.

If the lot is sacred, then perhaps one could say that GOD didn't want a church located there.

Thinking about churches being destroyed, Notre-Dame comes to mind. Many of those old cathedrals were built and remodeled over centuries. Sometimes things like bronze doors are less than a century old. They chose to rebuild a wooden superstructure like the one that burnt. I would have chosen to modernize the roof supports with steel and aluminum to reduce catastrophic fire risk.

 

[ruffdog]

Maybe it is time for much more than just the church moving locations.

Managed retreat involves the purposeful, coordinated movement of people and buildings away from risks. This may involve the movement of a person, infrastructure (e.g., building or road), or community. It can occur in response to a variety of hazards such as flood, wildfire, or drought.

Managed retreat - Wikipedia

Soldiers Grove is a village situated along the Kickapoo River in Crawford County, Wisconsin, in the United States. The population was 552 at the 2020 census. The town is notable for having relocated its central business district due to flooding on the nearby Kickapoo River during the 1970s, and has become a case study in best practices for managed retreat.[5]

Soldiers Grove, Wisconsin - Wikipedia

 

[ruffdog]

Here is another community that moved because of the Kickapoo River flooding.

Gays Mills, Wisconsin - Wikipedia

 

[CliffordK]

The reasoning to build in the same spot is apparently it was a "500 year flood".

I believe that calling something a 25 year, century, 500 year, or millennium flood is a poor use of statistics.

If one collects a series of water levels over time, one can get the average water level, and then calculate the standard deviation, and come up with how far any particular flood is from the norm. And thus calculate the frequency of occurrence.

Yet, that ignores the underlying cause of the flood. Not all rain events are the same.

If you once in a while get hit by a Hurricane, then you have to look at the probability of getting hit by a hurricane, rather than the average water level. And not all hurricanes are the same.

Our big local flood was the 1964 Christmas Flood. We have had a few floods, but nothing in my lifetime like that one. So, we're 60 years on, not bad.

Christmas flood of 1964 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looking at the cause of the flood, it wasn't that we just had a big rain. Yes, there was that. But, there were 3 primary contributing factors.

1) Hard Early Freeze creating impermeable ground.
2) Heavy Snow storm.
3) Heavy Warm Rain (atmospheric river). Perhaps a "Pineapple Express" storm. That melted the snow which washed off rather than soaking in.

We've also had flood control dams that were built around the 1950's and 1960's, and it is possible the risk is somewhat reduced today, although I wonder if the dam system would be overwhelmed by that flood. Of course there is also an effort to remove the dams that were protecting us.
Any of those events happen from time to time. The problem was the 3 of them occurring together causing catastrophic widespread flooding.

So, to calculate the frequency of a flood like the Christmas flood, one has to not look at the standard deviation of the water levels, but to look at the contributing factors and determine how frequent they occur together. It is also possible that the three events weren't independent, but were part of a single storm.

I am a slightly lower elevation than when I was a kid, but I just don't think we've had hard freezes like when I was younger.

Here on the West Coast we also have typhoons or hurricanes. Most don't make landfall in Oregon, but we've had a few blowing by close. Then there was the California hurricane a couple of years ago.

Columbus Day storm of 1962 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We could get directly hit by a hurricane or typhoon that could cause huge floods that would be far outside of any predicted range.

Anyway, one has to pay attention to the cause of the flood and risk factors, not just high water.

 

[scootr]

And lotsa luck getting insurance on it.
The town I live in has no building permits or anything like that (other than septic, which is a state requirement). More than once someone has bought property a mile or more down a Class VI road thinking of building there only to find out no one will insure the property once it's built.

Who needs insurance when you got God ? Unless you build in the creek bed or on top of a volcano ...
Seriously, you're gonna pray to God for salvation from an act of God and buy insurance to hedge your bet?
Brings up some interesting questions, doesn't it.

 

[2manyrocks]

Most of these rivers in the Smokey mountains are peaceful and serene. It took a tremendous amount of rainfall from Hurricane Helene in a very short period to cause mudslides down the mountains and for the streams to rise 30' or more. It is very rare that rainfall of this magnitude happens in these mountains, and I understand why so many didn't have flood insurance.

If the same amount of rainfall had fallen so quickly on Knoxville, Nashville, Memphis, or anywhere else, they'd probably all be washed away, too.

 

[shooterdon]

Short answer. NO.

They are not very bright. God has sent them a message and they have chosen to ignore it.

 

[ultrarunner]

And lotsa luck getting insurance on it.
The town I live in has no building permits or anything like that (other than septic, which is a state requirement). More than once someone has bought property a mile or more down a Class VI road thinking of building there only to find out no one will insure the property once it's built.

The way it’s going in the West is you can be a mile from 2 fire stations, have city fire hydrant in front, clay tile roof, etc… and still cannot obtain insurance unless through the state plan … less coverage at much higher premium.

The future of available insurance is uncertain at best.

 

[CliffordK]

Most of these rivers in the Smokey mountains are peaceful and serene. It took a tremendous amount of rainfall from Hurricane Helene in a very short period to cause mudslides down the mountains and for the streams to rise 30' or more. It is very rare that rainfall of this magnitude happens in these mountains, and I understand why so many didn't have flood insurance.

If the same amount of rainfall had fallen so quickly on Knoxville, Nashville, Memphis, or anywhere else, they'd probably all be washed away, too.

I figured that was a Hurricane.

But that is also my point. It isn't about how frequently you get a few clouds that dump a foot of rainfall, but rather how frequently the place gets hit by a hurricane, or a hurricane remnant.

There will be many homes and businesses that weren't sitting down in a creek bed that survived.