110V Electrical Question

[dcyrilc]

It would be nice if you had a head-on picture that showed the breakers a bit closer. It's rather hard to tell with the picture you provided, but it looks like your well and receptacles are on 120V duplex breakers rather than 220V double pole breakers you indicated. It also looks like you have the black well wire on the bottom empty space of the receptacle pair (#6 above), leaving #7 blank. You might want to clarify that. Your white wire for the well (#8) should have some red tape on it for 220V ID purposes.

Good eye. It does look like the well is not on a common trip breaker set as it should be.

Ask your electrician what he recommends should be done to bring it up to code and make it safe. Any good electrician should give you valid recommendations and we can tell you if his evaluations are valid or bull. After that, it's your decision how much you want to have done.

 

[dcyrilc]

Might not hurt to take a picture of the inside of the meter panel while he has it open either.

 

[Inspector507]

Is the panel a FPE panel? because they have been known to have problems.



tom

No, that is a Zinsco brand. No longer made.

 

[captaincrab55]

No, that is a Zinsco brand. No longer made.

I'll second that on Zinsco... If you have a bad breaker (which you may) and need a breaker, they are big $$$ compared to new other brands.. I have a few old/used ones... If you need one, its yours for postage.. Send a PM if you need one, that is if I have it... IMHO, Retire that Civil War electric panel and get it replaced with either Square D (not home-line, but QO) or Cutler Hammer...

BTW, You could ebay the old breakers...

 

[Steve_Miller]

I'll vouch for a corroded crimp on the neutral at the pole at the roadside connection or at the top of the service mast.

Steve

 

[Transit]

JD ... What I am saying is my welder is 220 on a 50 amp breaker and I can use it anytime. The 110 outlets are my problem.

220 volt circuits do not use a neutral conductor [white wire] only ground, phase A 120 v, phase B 120 v. phase A + B, 120 + 120 = 220 v.

120 v circuits use phase A or phase B, or phase A and phase B to create two 120 v circuits with the white wire and a ground.

There could be a problem on how the white wire is connected or only one phase is wired to supply 120 v.

 

[dcyrilc]

I'll second that on Zinsco... If you have a bad breaker (which you may) and need a breaker, they are big $$$ compared to new other brands.. I have a few old/used ones... If you need one, its yours for postage.. Send a PM if you need one, that is if I have it... IMHO, Retire that Civil War electric panel and get it replaced with either Square D (not home-line, but QO) or Cutler Hammer...

BTW, You could ebay the old breakers...

Around here, Siemens and GE are pretty common and good quality right along with the Square D QO panels. About all you can find for CH here are their homeowner panels. Tough to find the commercial ones.

As for ebaying the old breakers... I wouldn't sell them to my worst enemy. Just to much history of problems with them. The Zinsco panels and breakers are junk and have been since they were made. Even so, there are still a lot of them out there. Just shows that trading cost for quality isn't a new thing.

Currently I'm more curious what he has for a meter panel and what condition it's in.

A good quality Siemens, GE, or Square D 100 amp main panel should be about $60 though I haven't priced one in a few years. About the same for a meter panel. Maybe $20 for new wire from the meter panel to main panel, $20-50 for new breakers, plus labor... I would think he shoud be able to replace the whole system for under $500 on the top end if he needs to go that far. Anyone want to give their thought on my figures?

 

[tommu56]

I am am industrial electrician and any thing I install is SQD.

Even for my friends at there home OQ panels are the only way to go.

tom

 

[captaincrab55]

A good quality Siemens, GE, or Square D 100 amp main panel should be about $60 though I haven't priced one in a few years. About the same for a meter panel. Maybe $20 for new wire from the meter panel to main panel, $20-50 for new breakers, plus labor... I would think he shoud be able to replace the whole system for under $500 on the top end if he needs to go that far. Anyone want to give their thought on my figures?

Will one need a permit ???

 

[dcyrilc]

I am am industrial electrician and any thing I install is SQD.

Even for my friends at there home OQ panels are the only way to go.

tom

I'm right there with you Tom. My specialty is traffic signals and street lighting. All our panels are custom made with bolt in breakers. Most components are required to be spec grade.

I build to the same standards at home as I do at work. The state electrical inspector usually looks something like this :confused2: after inspecting my stuff and comparing it to residentual requirements.:laughing:

 

[dcyrilc]

Will one need a permit ???

Probably. Not sure about where the OP is at, but here the permit is the cheapest part of the deal ($15). As for just repairing, I would guess no permit required. To upgrade, my answer would be yes. I know that this varies by region though. His contractor should be able to tell him what's required for his area.

 

[Mace Canute]

I cast my vote for tossing the old panel and installing a new SQD one. Sometime in the future, you are going to have trouble with those breakers and if Murphy has any say in it, (and when doesn't he?) it will be at the most inopportune time!

I can't say for sure from the pics, but do the wires going to the 50 Amp and 30 Amp breakers look undersized? You can run a little bigger beaker (than you would normally use on any other circuit) on a dedicated welder service because of the duty cycle but that looks just a shade small to my old eyes even at that.

It would be interesting to see how the wires to the receptacles are connected in the outlet boxes. You might want to consider changing them all out too if they are "old as the hills" and they really aren't expensive at all...depends how well they grip the male plug-in or if you see any sign of a hot-spot on them.

The main problem certainly sounds like a bad neutral somewhere. A good electrician should be able to track that down right fast!

 

[tthopskin@yahoo.ca]

your drawing more the it can handle your welder is on a different circuit more amps nothing wrong with it look at the amps each heater is drawing this will tell you every thing

 

[JDgreen227]

I cast my vote for tossing the old panel and installing a new SQD one. Sometime in the future, you are going to have trouble with those breakers and if Murphy has any say in it, (and when doesn't he?) it will be at the most inopportune time!

I can't say for sure from the pics, but do the wires going to the 50 Amp and 30 Amp breakers look undersized? You can run a little bigger beaker (than you would normally use on any other circuit) on a dedicated welder service because of the duty cycle but that looks just a shade small to my old eyes even at that.

It would be interesting to see how the wires to the receptacles are connected in the outlet boxes. You might want to consider changing them all out too if they are "old as the hills" and they really aren't expensive at all...depends how well they grip the male plug-in or if you see any sign of a hot-spot on them.

The main problem certainly sounds like a bad neutral somewhere. A good electrician should be able to track that down right fast!

Have ALWAYS used SQD panels here, have some outdoor sub panels that are going on 20 years they still look good. About receptacles, never used the cheapo 50 cent ones, always commercial grade, you can get good ones for $2 or $3 each and they will outlast you, considering the time you can spend replacing an outlet down the road they are a cheap upgrade. Oh might as well mention this, my original house was an Aladdin (Bay City, Michigan) kit house, built in '49. When the owners wired the house they used ALUMINUM outlet and switch boxes, and the metal frame for the majority of the 2 wire outlets and switches were also made of aluminum (not the screws, however). I know about aluminum wiring, but how many of you have seen aluminum switch boxes and outlets?

 

[chopped]

:laughing:Hand raised. ............:thumbsup: my cheapo 50 cent ones are around 1 dollar now ..lol

 

[Knotbored]

My eyes aren't good enough to tell-but could that be wired with aluminum wire and have a corrosion problem like the one that burned down a few houses back in the 60's? As I recall the plugs used then allowed sparking because aluminum swelled/shrank and corroded, and special plugs were necessary.

 

[ray66v]

There is no question the QO breakers are the safest.

They can actually be too sensitive. Plug in a good sized radial arm saw, or a big grinder, and the starting draw can occasionally trip them, even though the tool is made for, and runs fine on a 20 amp circuit.

When this happens, you have few good options. It would be nice if they made some kind of "slow blow" breaker, for this situation. If there is a solution for this, I have not found it, and I would be interested in hearing it. No, I don't want to change the plugs to 30 amp dedicated ones.

If I use Homeline, or Cutler Hammer, same tool, no problem. Still pretty good stuff.

 

[tommu56]

There is no question the QO breakers are the safest.

They can actually be too sensitive. Plug in a good sized radial arm saw, or a big grinder, and the starting draw can occasionally trip them, even though the tool is made for, and runs fine on a 20 amp circuit.

When this happens, you have few good options. It would be nice if they made some kind of "slow blow" breaker, for this situation. If there is a solution for this, I have not found it, and I would be interested in hearing it. No, I don't want to change the plugs to 30 amp dedicated ones.

If I use Homeline, or Cutler Hammer, same tool, no problem. Still pretty good stuff.

use a HACR type breaker they handle the inrush better

or a

high magnetic type.

Product Detail - Schneider Electric United States

tom

 

[blueriver]

Well ... no news he called about 4:15 and said he would try to make it tomorrow ....

 

[ray66v]

use a HACR type breaker they handle the inrush better

or a

high magnetic type.

Product Detail - Schneider Electric United States

tom

Thanks Tom, I can't tell you how useless counter people, and electricians, I have asked about this have been. The HACR type, seems to be just what I wanted. I don't have to like the price, I guess.