110VAC from 220VAC How to?

[grsthegreat]

Actually, if you know what you are doing, and have done when complete, and remember it, and the ground wire remains good, and nobody else fools with it ... it is safe. I ran 50A 220-110 on 2 hots and ground to my garage for years. When I sold the house I made it a 110 circuit only of course.
larry

well ill say it once and i never say it again. To make a 3 wire 220 circuit work 110, you would have had to of used the ground wire as a false neutral. In other words you hooked up one hot leg and the ground and got 110.

problem is a 110 circuit sends power down this neutral path (the ground wire ) and thus you had power on the ground leg. this is ALWAYS a no-no.

sure it worked ,... for years. Problem is if you ever had a true fault (short), there was NO effective ground path back to the circuit breaker to trip that breaker. It would have remained hot.

This is why its BAD to use this configuration. will it work, yes. is it safe. NO.

thats all i will say on the subject.

Now, anyone seen a good movie lately? the wife wants to go to the movies and i cant think of anything to see.

 

[beppington]

well ill say it once and i never say it again. To make a 3 wire 220 circuit work 110, you would have had to of used the ground wire as a false neutral. In other words you hooked up one hot leg and the ground and got 110.

problem is a 110 circuit sends power down this neutral path (the ground wire ) and thus you had power on the ground leg. this is ALWAYS a no-no.

sure it worked ,... for years. Problem is if you ever had a true fault (short), there was NO effective ground path back to the circuit breaker to trip that breaker. It would have remained hot.

This is why its BAD to use this configuration. will it work, yes. is it safe. NO.

thats all i will say on the subject.

Now, anyone seen a good movie lately? the wife wants to go to the movies and i cant think of anything to see.

Hunger Games = over-rated IMO. Started looking at my watch about 45 minutes in, then again at ~15 min intervals until the bitter end. Just not that good. Was glad when it ended. Maybe I was just in the wrong mood/mindset, but I didn't think so.

 

[grsthegreat]

Hunger Games = over-rated IMO. Started looking at my watch about 45 minutes in, then again at ~15 min intervals until the bitter end. Just not that good. Was glad when it ended. Maybe I was just in the wrong mood/mindset, but I didn't think so.

hmm, i just heard from a friend that they thought it was way hyped also. he and his wife were bored with it

 

[SPYDERLK]

Actually, if you know what you are doing, and have done when complete, and remember it, and the ground wire remains good, and nobody else fools with it ... it is safe. I ran 50A 220-110 on 2 hots and ground to my garage for years. When I sold the house I made it a 110 circuit only of course.
larry

well ill say it once and i never say it again. To make a 3 wire 220 circuit work 110, you would have had to of used the ground wire as a false neutral. In other words you hooked up one hot leg and the ground and got 110.

problem is a 110 circuit sends power down this neutral path (the ground wire ) and thus you had power on the ground leg. this is ALWAYS a no-no.

sure it worked ,... for years. Problem is if you ever had a true fault (short), there was NO effective ground path back to the circuit breaker to trip that breaker. It would have remained hot.
This is why its BAD to use this configuration. will it work, yes. is it safe. NO.

thats all i will say on the subject.

Hows that? What kind of short wouldnt flip the breaker? You are probably talking about a ground fault interrupter breaker. ... and even that has an amp rating. Neutral and ground arent breakered. A hot sees over its rating it breaks. Just dont use a ganged breaker on the 220. ... I tried to give an idea of the real problem here:

Your pump service was not set up to make a 120 circuit available. ... Yet there is 120 avail between either of the hots and the ground wire. For 120 availability done right, the service line to the well would have been 4wires [3 wires- H,H,N, and a ground wire]. Then, to get 120 safely yould go between one of the H and the Neutral. N and Ground are at the same potential [0] as they leave your house panel, but due to inherent resistance in all wire, as soon as current is drawn thru either at the well location that one will have a potential above 0. For instance, with 4 wires, you hook your saw from N to H and turn it on. The 10A or more it draws causes the total 120V available between NH at the well under no load condition, to split up between the tool and the conductors. You may lose as much as 5V in each line to the well, leaving 110 remaining across the running tool. In this case the loaded H to N measures 110 -- but N to G measures 5V because G is not carrying current and hence presents the true (0) potential from the house panel to well. B-B But if you have no N and use G for neutral it will act the same as N did and present 5V at the well when the tool is on. Since G is also connected to the well casing there will be a 5V charge on the casing as the tool runs. Not so bad but surely enuf to feel if your feet are wet [at earth 0] and your hand touches case "ground". A different story as you start the tool. High start surge will cause momentary high potential on case ground - maybe 15V. ... And then theres always the possibility that a break will occur somewhere in G. Then turning on the tool [trying to - it wont run] puts 120 at case ground . So as you can see, dangerous conditions are possible using G as a current carrier. 4 wire prevents this risk.
larry

 

[beppington]

Seems like electrical threads like this always have disagreements. I'm not sure why - lack of knowledge/ guessing? Miscommunications among posters?

A lil' scary.

I like to read these to learn, but there never seem to be solid resolutions. Nothing I feel I can trust anyway.

 

[grsthegreat]

The basic premise in an electrical panel is that the electrical current HAS to find its way back to its source. The ground wire is that source. this is why a hard wire ground wire is now used in ALL electrical systems. This path back is what returns the shorted leg back to the disconnecting means.

Now if there is NO ground path, or say the earth is used as this ground path, and its too far away so as there is a great impedance to the flow of electricity, the breaker wont open.

I can GUARANTEE the fact that this can happen. I have seen it many times in the past 28 years as an electrician. I have seen shorted circuits that are feeding power directly to ground and not opening the circuit. happens more times than you think.

Prior to the 2008 code changes, a shop located say 200 feet from the main service didnt need a separate ground wire run along its length of feeder wire. Instead a new ground rod was all that was needed. Problem is there were instances of this underground wire shorting and the circuit breaker did not trip. The path between grounds was just too great. thats why now were required to also include a separate ground wire.

 

[grsthegreat]

Hows that? What kind of short wouldnt flip the breaker? You are probably talking about a ground fault interrupter breaker. ... and even that has an amp rating. Neutral and ground arent breakered. A hot sees over its rating it breaks. Just dont use a ganged breaker on the 220. ... I tried to give an idea of the real problem here:

thats not how the breakers work. sorry

 

[SPYDERLK]

thats not how the breakers work. sorry

I dont know what the misunderstanding is, but youre wrong. Perhaps youre talking about an open ground used as neutral ... but you said "short" - - opposite of "open". :confused2:
larry

 

[grsthegreat]

I dont know what the misunderstanding is, but youre wrong. Perhaps youre talking about an open ground used as neutral ... but you said "short" - - opposite of "open". :confused2:
larry

?

the ground path is the path back to a breaker that results in opening the circuit. I have seen circuits shorted into the earth, but not connected with a ground wire , continue to run power thru the circuit, and the breaker doesnt trip. even though the circuit IS shorted to ground.

 

[mjw357]

Wish someone would 'pull the plug' on this thread. :confused2: