1700 Resurrection

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 3, 2012

I'm about to tackle the resurrection of our family's '79 1700 2WD with 770 loader. Before he passed, my uncle (original owner) drove this tractor like it was a D9! After some other 'tinkerers' in the family have tried to work on this thing, it sat for a few years.

I've gathered all the info on filters/fluids and other maintenance advice, and have gotten some behind the scenes direction from JC (thanks again!). I do know it currently has automotive coolant and engine oil in it, as well as contaminated trans/hydro (due to a paper sack used for a gasket). There is a significant amount of blowby, which I assume is from the automotive engine oil. At one point the rings were replaced and the oil ring was installed upside down. This is a mess, but it's got to be taken care of. At least I've got the operator's manual and the FO-40.

My biggest concern is the clutch. I am 4 hours away from the tractor and haven't been able to looking at it while running, but the last person to operate it says the clutch isn't working. There seems to be acceptable free travel in the pedal. When fully depressed there is an internal popping sound. I know it's nearly impossible to diagnose something virtually, but could this be an adjustment or possibly the fork/hub on the clutch shaft worn out? I'd like to avoid splitting if possible but am afraid it will be needed. Any input is greatly appreciated!

rayikeo2 · Dec 3, 2012

Setting for a couple of years, the clutch plates may just be stuck togather. JC can give you a fix without splitting if this is the problem. Check with the family member that told you the clutch wasn't working to see if it is engaged all the time. If so, let the forum know that is the problem and they can recommend the fix. without splitting.

JC-jetro · Dec 3, 2012

RedDirtDaddy,

Let's focus on the clutch for starter. The good think about Ford 1700 is that you have a and inspection hole (hand hole) that has a rubber cover. The hand hole is on the right side of the transmission. You mentioning a D9 and that reminds me a dozer. Do you have a loader on this thing. If so the loader mount unfortunately cover the hole some and make it difficult to inspect. With the cover removed and help of second person one can simulate the whole clutch operation with the tractor of or off or even off. I recommend doing it with the engine off. You really need to be prepared, rear axle on the jack, wheel chocked to be safe. check the all the fingers on the pressure plate are not damaged, check the gap between release bearing and the fingers. Can check the return spring on the bearing holder. Can check bearing holder travel back and forth and see if there is anything binding. You can even check some clearance between the flywheel and clutch plate and clutch plate vs pressure plate when the clutch is depressed fully. You'll need a flash drive. I can't my finger on it but I know I have a ton of pictures about it and how I measure clutch plate thickness left VS oem.

The good thing is you can do all the investigation non destructively and pretty quick. In 15 minutes you should know what you're up against. I wonderd if one of the 3 finger on pressure plate is damaged hence the popping sound or issue with spring return on the holder. Search my post and you'll find them . If you have issues then let us know and we'll dig it up. A lot of guys here will be able to provide good comments suggestion as we go deeper with diagnostics.

JC,

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 3, 2012

Ray,

I'll be there tomorrow afternoon for most of the month, so I'll check it out myself over the family's thoughts.

JC,

Yes, 770 FEL. That was my plan to remove the loader since the inspection cover is half exposed (all the FEL bolts on one side are missing anyway, and a bucket cylinder rod is bent also). Hopefully I'll be able to deduce something through the port.

I'll report back soon. Thank you!!

JC-jetro · Dec 3, 2012

I have an inspection camera that does have a flexible head with the camera and light source. Something like that would be real handy there even with the loader mount as you can wiggle the camera head. It is kind of doing colonoscopy

You should be able to find a lot of information after your inspection. if you don't have a seconf hand to help then you might inspect with the clutch out. Press the clutch and use s weigh, bungee or something to keep engaged and then inspect. It is much much better with a help as you can see and hear when the pop occurs.

Good luck,
JC,

RedDirtDaddy said:
Ray,

I'll be there tomorrow afternoon for most of the month, so I'll check it out myself over the family's thoughts.

JC,

Yes, 770 FEL. That was my plan to remove the loader since the inspection cover is half exposed (all the FEL bolts on one side are missing anyway, and a bucket cylinder rod is bent also). Hopefully I'll be able to deduce something through the port.

I'll report back soon. Thank you!!

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 3, 2012

Hmm, a borescope type camera might require a HF run.....but that can be dangerous for my bank account

The rubber port cover is severely dry rotted so I'll just pull the loader frame. I'll be doing most of the work leading up to splitting, in the event it is needed. I'd really like to pull the head to see cylinder wall status (due to the excessive blowby and upside down rings) but am not crazy about the cost of a replacement head gasket.

Hooked_on_HP · Dec 3, 2012

I don't think the oil will cause blow by.What makes you think the oil ring is up side down?.I would worry about the engine before any thing else. If you can not get the engine going the nothing else matters.
Bill

JC-jetro · Dec 3, 2012

RedDirtDaddy said:
Hmm, a borescope type camera might require a HF run.....but that can be dangerous for my bank account The rubber port cover is severely dry rotted so I'll just pull the loader frame. I'll be doing most of the work leading up to splitting, in the event it is needed. I'd really like to pull the head to see cylinder wall status (due to the excessive blowby and upside down rings) but am not crazy about the cost of a replacement head gasket.

Would you get the same blowby with new oil? any sign of diesel in crankcase oil? smell? I have not done any major work with the engine and I have done all I could to avoid it. Don't have feel for the cost of head repair, gasket , valve jobs and such. Jones??? (AKA Russel) has done a great job fixing his tractor head that was cracked. I think he used partsSpring as source. not 100% sure.
JC.

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 3, 2012

Oh, I've seen it run recently. A few years ago one uncle 'overhauled' the engine, and it caused a decent amount of oil to be blown through the exhaust. Another uncle and an aunt reversed the oil rings and it stopped. If you haven't gathered by now, there have been entirely too many hands on this tractor. The engine has never given any problems and seems sound, but I will likely at least do a compression check once some other things are addressed. Currently (without digging in to anything yet), the clutch is my biggest concern.

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 3, 2012

It would make sense to me though for an automotive oil to drastically lose viscosity and burn in a diesel engine, no??

Yes JC, I've seen his pics. I will likely add to the pic collection here! That reminds me to pack my camera

JC-jetro · Dec 3, 2012

Bill,

I know oil does not cause blowby but if there is blowby then wanted to see tell tale sign like product of the combustion in crankcase oil.

Jc,

Hooked_on_HP · Dec 3, 2012

The oil ring will not cause blow by. It can cause oil burning. The 2 top rings control compression and blow by. Probably when it was reringed before they probably just honed the cylinders by hand. The cylinders are probably out of round. Now when you put a new round ring in the out of round cylinder it wont seal. Or the cylinder is wore enough that it is so big that tha rings don't have enough tension to stop the blow by.
Bill

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 3, 2012

I'm done trying to figure out what all my family has failed to do properly on this tractor. With a ratio of 21:1, what kind of compression PSI should I be looking for?

Hooked_on_HP · Dec 4, 2012

There is no spec for compression. Hopefully some one has done a compression test on their 1700 and remember what it was. FYI an compression tester for a gas engine will not go high enough. HF sells a diesel compression tester that will screw in to the hole for the glow plugs. A cylinder leakage tester will give you a better diagnosis if you know some one who has one. With a cylinder leakage tester you can diagnose bad valves or bad rings. The % of leakage tells you the condition of the engine. The less leakage the better shape it is in. here is the tester http://www.harborfreight.com/cylinder-leak-down-tester-94190.html
Bill

jones6780 · Dec 7, 2012

o.k.
If the clutch is not working, does that mean it is slipping or not releasing? The popping sound could just be the release bearing if the engine was running when you heard it. What is the latest info?

Russell

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 8, 2012

I am back into civilization for the weekend. After getting Christmas decorations up I'll report my findings and likely approach.

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 9, 2012

Ok, Russell is right, the clutch isn't releasing. I didn't have proper provisions for good pics but the TO bearing is ground way past functional limits. So, the pedal was ridden or improperly adjusted (and likely stuck from sitting outside for so long, collecting pine needles). The alternator isn't charging, but has a wire disconnected. I've found the local NH dealer and they are VERY helpful, with pricing/availability that is hard to beat. Our family trust cannot afford a new tractor, and don't want to risk the crap shoot on a used tractor, so although a somewhat pricy venture we feel it is worthwhile.

The plan moving forward:
Engine/head will be inspected-reworked
New clutch assembly (inspecting eng/trans seals during split)
Tach cable replacement (clearly broken)
Shifter cover gasket replacement (current gasket is made from a paper sack.....don't ask)
New battery/cables
Rewire with only pertinent wiring (fixing alternator wiring in process)
Hyd pump rebuild with shaft seal replacement
Lift piston seal replacement
New radiator hoses
New belt
Fluids and filters (including air cleaner and inj pump)
Possible radiator replacement (been repaired multiple times)
New hoses on the 770 loader (at some point along the way)

I think that's it. Hopefully there won't be any surprises along the way! The info contained in this forum is invaluable, and is made possible by some awesome people! Thanks to all of you who continue providing information!! The work will start this coming week, and will be done swiftly barring any complications. I'll try to get pics in the process and keep the thread as updated as I can (extremely limited connectivity behind the pine curtain!).

JC-jetro · Dec 9, 2012

RedDirtDaddy said:
Ok, Russell is right, the clutch isn't releasing. I didn't have proper provisions for good pics but the TO bearing is ground way past functional limits. So, the pedal was ridden or improperly adjusted (and likely stuck from sitting outside for so long, collecting pine needles). The alternator isn't charging, but has a wire disconnected. I've found the local NH dealer and they are VERY helpful, with pricing/availability that is hard to beat. Our family trust cannot afford a new tractor, and don't want to risk the crap shoot on a used tractor, so although a somewhat pricy venture we feel it is worthwhile.

The plan moving forward:
oader (at s1- Engine/head will be inspected-reworked

2-New clutch assembly (inspecting eng/trans seals during split)

3- New battery/cables

4- Tach cable replacement (clearly broken)
Shifter cover gasket replacement (current gasket is made from a paper sack.....don't ask)

5- Rewire with only pertinent wiring (fixing alternator wiring in process)

6- Hyd pump rebuild with shaft seal replacement

7-Lift piston seal replacement

8-New radiator hoses

9-New belt

10-Fluids and filters (including air cleaner and inj pump)

11-Possible radiator replacement (been repaired multiple times)

12- New hoses on the 770 lome point along the way)

I think that's it. Hopefully there won't be any surprises along the way! The info contained in this forum is invaluable, and is made possible by some awesome people! Thanks to all of you who continue providing information!! The work will start this coming week, and will be done swiftly barring any complications. I'll try to get pics in the process and keep the thread as updated as I can (extremely limited connectivity behind the pine curtain!).

Okay. You've got hopefully only a hill to climb and not a mountain. Refresh my memory. Has this engine run anytime recently? if so how did it sound? Can you start it?

Item 1- I'd hold on to it for now as yo can work on it a lot and yet have major issues with the hydraulics yet that you might not know.
Item 2- Split is doable, no issues there and can use Ebay resource the whole kit for about $200. throwout bearing, pressure plate, disk, aligning tool and a the pilot bearing.
Item 3- $75 from anywhere.
item 4- don't know how much NH sells it for but I'm sure replacement can be found . The rubber boot might be more difficult but a "witch's hat" that is used for vent pipe can be used , inverted and with some clamp.
item 5- certainly doable and may be under $15 to do.

item 6- if all is well you can do the overhaul around $60 now but ... I would not spent money on anything unless I could verify that the
shape of the gears and bushign and the input shaft is good. Tractor will not worth much if this one item is bad or can nor be salvaged. The price of of a hyd pump might be in excess of $1000 and that would change the calculation to proceed or not.

item 7- $25 and 45 minutes will correct the seal provided the piston and cylinder are not previously damaged due to neglect.
item 8- Either thru NH or Auto store you can find a matching hose... maybe $20.
Item 9. Easy , anything almost fits if you take the old one to a auto store to match at $10.
Item 10. TSC and their Mystick oil meets NH-134 and all you'll need with some Rotella would costs $60.
Item 11. That is a biggie and costly. if I were to do it I match some non oem new radiator that matched physically and has about the same flow and heat dissipation capability. will not be cheap, lucky if you can do it for $200.
Item 12- it will be expensive. $150-200 may be.

So before I shell out some dough I'll make sure hyd pump is okay. Make sure hyd is working even if the tractor is not moving. once I establish that I start with the split. I then change the engine oil and hyd oil and run it for a while to see if I'd work on the head. at least I 'd throw money and lots of sweat equity in an sensible progression.

JC,

RedDirtDaddy · Dec 9, 2012

JC-jetro said:
Okay. You've got hopefully only a hill to climb and not a mountain. Refresh my memory. Has this engine run anytime recently? if so how did it sound? Can you start it?

Yes, I drove it for about an hour last week. Everything works fine minus the clutch staying engaged. The hyd seem a little slow and weak to me but the fluid might as well be vanilla chocolate milk right now.

Item 1- I'd hold on to it for now as yo can work on it a lot and yet have major issues with the hydraulics yet that you might not know.
Since split is happening, and trans/rear axle seem fine, it only makes sense to us to at least prevent future issues. At least two years or so of future run time is what we're looking at. Reliable equipment surely beats a shovel, come-along and a wheelbarrow!!
Item 2- Split is doable, no issues there and can use Ebay resource the whole kit for about $200. throwout bearing, pressure plate, disk, aligning tool and a the pilot bearing.
On the way already
Item 3- $75 from anywhere.
Already have it
item 4- don't know how much NH sells it for but I'm sure replacement can be found . The rubber boot might be more difficult but a "witch's hat" that is used for vent pipe can be used , inverted and with some clamp.
Cable and gasket are a whopping $35 from NH. A 5 gal bucket over the shifters will suffice for the short time until new boots are bought
item 5- certainly doable and may be under $15 to do.
The alternator is what I'm most concerned about. It is a non-OEM replacement with different terminal markings than wiring diagram
item 6- if all is well you can do the overhaul around $60 now but ... I would not spent money on anything unless I could verify that the
shape of the gears and bushign and the input shaft is good. Tractor will not worth much if this one item is bad or can nor be salvaged. The price of of a hyd pump might be in excess of $1000 and that would change the calculation to proceed or not.
$45 for internal rebuild, $5-10 (I don't have it written down) for the shaft seal. If the mechanical guts are suspect then we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Keep your fingers crossed
item 7- $25 and 45 minutes will correct the seal provided the piston and cylinder are not previously damaged due to neglect.
Again, keep your fingers crossed for no damage
item 8- Either thru NH or Auto store you can find a matching hose... maybe $20.
Already done
Item 9. Easy , anything almost fits if you take the old one to a auto store to match at $10.
Already done, belt L444
Item 10. TSC and their Mystick oil meets NH-134 and all you'll need with some Rotella would costs $60.
Again, already done
Item 11. That is a biggie and costly. if I were to do it I match some non oem new radiator that matched physically and has about the same flow and heat dissipation capability. will not be cheap, lucky if you can do it for $200.
I'm not crazy about the idea of replacement, my aunt is. Since there hasn't been any overheat issues I see no reason to replace. It has previously been repaired twice, cutting some cores out
Item 12- it will be expensive. $150-200 may be.
Again, my take is to start with the one or two that are really bad and do others as needed. Other family trust committee members think we've got endless pockets

So before I shell out some dough I'll make sure hyd pump is okay. Make sure hyd is working even if the tractor is not moving. once I establish that I start with the split. I then change the engine oil and hyd oil and run it for a while to see if I'd work on the head. at least I 'd throw money and lots of sweat equity in an sensible progression.
For sure! The tractor isn't in as bad of shape as it sounds, just needs some TLC. I am doing all the wrenching on it, and am not foreign to any of it. 12 years as an M1A1 tank technician in the Marines teaches you a lot. Since I'm doing the work, most decisions will be made by me

JC,