1st post looking at a Kioti CK35 HST

[Gittyup]

Loaded tires don't take weight off the front axle, so you over stress them when you use the FEL with anything but very light loads. That's why Kioti specifies a 3pt counterweight...loaded tires are for traction, counterweights are for FEL use.

You are right. But, it will let you operate this size tractor safely while handling any material that fits in the bucket. For anything beside what fits in the bucket (forks, prying, etc), a counter weight would be needed. These tractors have over built transaxles that can handle the loads they were designed for without counter weights. I wouldn't use a loader without filled tires or semi-permanent wheel weights.

 

[GManBart]

You are right. But, it will let you operate this size tractor safely while handling any material that fits in the bucket. For anything beside what fits in the bucket (forks, prying, etc), a counter weight would be needed. These tractors have over built transaxles that can handle the loads they were designed for without counter weights. I wouldn't use a loader without filled tires or semi-permanent wheel weights.

Kioti disagrees with you, and so does some simple math.

The front axles on compact tractors are nowhere near overbuilt the way they are on backhoes, or loaders. If you're filling the bucket with sand, or gravel, you're overloading the front axles if you don't have a counterweight on the 3pt that roughly weighs what Kioti has spec'd.

Normal sand weighs at least 110lbs per cubic foot. The KL130 bucket is listed at 9.5 cubic feet of heaped material, which you can do with sand. 9.5 cubic feet of sand that weighs 110lbs per cubic feet is 1,045lbs. The loader is listed at 1,155lbs to max height at the pins. In short, just filling the bucket with sand has you right around max lift capacity, which means you need to be using the counterweight that the manufacturer has specified, or you're going to cause wear/damage eventually....it will also be safer, more stable, steer better, etc.

People going with just loaded tires are causing accelerated wear, even if they don't notice the rear tires getting light....just the way it works.

 

[Fuggley]

Kioti disagrees with you, and so does some simple math. The front axles on compact tractors are nowhere near overbuilt the way they are on backhoes, or loaders. If you're filling the bucket with sand, or gravel, you're overloading the front axles if you don't have a counterweight on the 3pt that roughly weighs what Kioti has spec'd. Normal sand weighs at least 110lbs per cubic foot. The KL130 bucket is listed at 9.5 cubic feet of heaped material, which you can do with sand. 9.5 cubic feet of sand that weighs 110lbs per cubic feet is 1,045lbs. The loader is listed at 1,155lbs to max height at the pins. In short, just filling the bucket with sand has you right around max lift capacity, which means you need to be using the counterweight that the manufacturer has specified, or you're going to cause wear/damage eventually....it will also be safer, more stable, steer better, etc. People going with just loaded tires are causing accelerated wear, even if they don't notice the rear tires getting light....just the way it works.

GManBart, the KL130 loader specs are not in anyway indicative of the capacities of the CK front axle. As you approach 1155lbs in the bucket without a counterweight (such as backhoe attachment, etc) the tractor will become understandably unbalanced and an operator has to be aware of this and exercise due care. Also, the KL130 loader hydraulics begin to max out..... but you cannot not damage that front axle at that weight or this forum would be full of busted axle complaints. Most people work the heck out of their CKs with full bucket loads of wet sand, gravel and rock. CK's do appear overbuilt for strength and endurance... the tractor is a compact workhorse.

 

[Gittyup]

Kioti disagrees with you, and so does some simple math.

The front axles on compact tractors are nowhere near overbuilt the way they are on backhoes, or loaders. If you're filling the bucket with sand, or gravel, you're overloading the front axles if you don't have a counterweight on the 3pt that roughly weighs what Kioti has spec'd.

Normal sand weighs at least 110lbs per cubic foot. The KL130 bucket is listed at 9.5 cubic feet of heaped material, which you can do with sand. 9.5 cubic feet of sand that weighs 110lbs per cubic feet is 1,045lbs. The loader is listed at 1,155lbs to max height at the pins. In short, just filling the bucket with sand has you right around max lift capacity, which means you need to be using the counterweight that the manufacturer has specified, or you're going to cause wear/damage eventually....it will also be safer, more stable, steer better, etc.

People going with just loaded tires are causing accelerated wear, even if they don't notice the rear tires getting light....just the way it works.

My Kioti manual makes no such qualifiers. Counterweight is only recommended to avoid tipping, for safety. Says nothing about damage or excessive wear on front end. A 1100 - 1200 pounds on a CK35 axle is nothing. That axle is the heaviest I've ever seen on this size tractor. Dont' know about the LS' or MFs, but much larger than comparable size Deeres, Kubotas, and TYMs. They are puny by comparison. I've move over 1000 thousand tons, often heaped way out on the bucket on a tooth bar, probably far more than 1100 lbs. And most of it on very steep terrain with no counterweight. No issues at all. If it'll fit in the bucket, the tractor with loaded tires will safely handle it. The bucket is properly sized to what the tractor was designed to handle.

 

[GManBart]

GManBart, the KL130 loader specs are not in anyway indicative of the capacities of the CK front axle. As you approach 1155lbs in the bucket without a counterweight (such as backhoe attachment, etc) the tractor will become understandably unbalanced and an operator has to be aware of this and exercise due care. Also, the KL130 loader hydraulics begin to max out..... but you cannot not damage that front axle at that weight or this forum would be full of busted axle complaints. Most people work the heck out of their CKs with full bucket loads of wet sand, gravel and rock. CK's do appear overbuilt for strength and endurance... the tractor is a compact workhorse.

Are you an engineer for Kioti, or has one officially told you that? I'm guessing no to both of those.

If you can even max the loader without a counterweight, or loaded tires (doubtful), it would be more than something where the operator needs to exercise care, it would be simply dangerous.

If either 700lbs on the 3pt, or loaded tires, were equally effective at keeping the axle loading appropriate, Kioti would list either/or, but they don't....the specify nothing but 3pt counterweight specs. That isn't going to be a coincidence.

CK's are nice machines, but are still a fairly lightweight CUT that have FEL capabilities as an attachment, not an integral component....go look at the difference between a CK, and an actual TLB and it's obvious which one is built for much more severe duty, even though the lift capacities aren't hugely different. There's a reason a Kubota L35 weighs 1,000lbs more than a nearly identically sized CK35 with FEL, and BH....it's built heavier, for more severe use. Yes, it can lift a couple hundred more ponds, but that's as much pump flow as anything else....not even close.

If you want to beat up your machines, that's your right, but telling a newbie to do so, in a potentially unsafe way, really isn't cool.

 

[Gittyup]

Are you an engineer for Kioti, or has one officially told you that? I'm guessing no to both of those.

If you can even max the loader without a counterweight, or loaded tires (doubtful), it would be more than something where the operator needs to exercise care, it would be simply dangerous.

If either 700lbs on the 3pt, or loaded tires, were equally effective at keeping the axle loading appropriate, Kioti would list either/or, but they don't....the specify nothing but 3pt counterweight specs. That isn't going to be a coincidence.

CK's are nice machines, but are still a fairly lightweight CUT that have FEL capabilities as an attachment, not an integral component....go look at the difference between a CK, and an actual TLB and it's obvious which one is built for much more severe duty, even though the lift capacities aren't hugely different. There's a reason a Kubota L35 weighs 1,000lbs more than a nearly identically sized CK35 with FEL, and BH....it's built heavier, for more severe use. Yes, it can lift a couple hundred more ponds, but that's as much pump flow as anything else....not even close.

If you want to beat up your machines, that's your right, but telling a newbie to do so, in a potentially unsafe way, really isn't cool.

A man with as many tractors as you should know better than to say that flow dictates lift capability. It does not. Pressure and cylinder size are the dominant factors. Flow has no bearing whatsoever, as long as you have some at all. You should know better.

I have 600 hours in the seat of a Kioti, moving 10's of thousands of pounds of materials. How much seat time do you have on a CK? Many, many TBN users operate their rigs in similar fashion with few reporting ill effects. I can recall one front end problem on a CK20 and maybe a couple on DK40's in the thousands of posts I've read on TBN over the past 8 years. And these were not necessarily attributed to overloading the front end. Now putting a set of forks or a stump prying apparatus on the loader, one could abuse the tractor and get into unsafe situations. I'm not contesting that at all. The further out front the load, the greater the potential for damage or accident. But, not if just using the little bitty loader bucket these tractors have. Lifting to the capacity of the bucket: a piece of cake for these CKs.

The size of the CK axles was a chief differentiator when I was buying. The competitors where much lighter. Perhaps that is where you are coming from. I work my machines as they are intended, but have never abused them. And safety is always first in my mind. My 8 year Kioti still looks and operates like new, much like my 19 year old garden tractor and just about everything else I own. You say beat up, operate unsafe. I say you don't know what you are talking about. And BTW, I am an engineer and do have a thorough knowledge of mechanics.

 

[Gittyup]

To the OP. If you get loaded R4 tires, you can safely use the loader bucket to full capacity without any counterweight. Not saying counter weight wouldn't be better. But, you can do so and max out the loader without fear of the back tires leaving the ground. I've stalled my loader hundreds of times with no rear attachment and tires stayed firmly planted. And I have a bolt on bucket without the quick attach. So, I have a little bit more power than you will have due to the quick attach. You will be OK. If you plan to put forks on or other attachment that puts the load far out in front, please use a counterweight.

 

[Fuggley]

Are you an engineer for Kioti, or has one officially told you that? I'm guessing no to both of those. If you can even max the loader without a counterweight, or loaded tires (doubtful), it would be more than something where the operator needs to exercise care, it would be simply dangerous. If either 700lbs on the 3pt, or loaded tires, were equally effective at keeping the axle loading appropriate, Kioti would list either/or, but they don't....the specify nothing but 3pt counterweight specs. That isn't going to be a coincidence. CK's are nice machines, but are still a fairly lightweight CUT that have FEL capabilities as an attachment, not an integral component....go look at the difference between a CK, and an actual TLB and it's obvious which one is built for much more severe duty, even though the lift capacities aren't hugely different. There's a reason a Kubota L35 weighs 1,000lbs more than a nearly identically sized CK35 with FEL, and BH....it's built heavier, for more severe use. Yes, it can lift a couple hundred more ponds, but that's as much pump flow as anything else....not even close. If you want to beat up your machines, that's your right, but telling a newbie to do so, in a potentially unsafe way, really isn't cool.

Hey GManBart, don't get all defensive and distortional. I'm simply pointing out that your "math" refers just to the specified capacities of the KL130 loader. I agree that a CK operator needs to be aware of lift specifications of the KL130 loader.
But seriously, you can't expect to use only KL130 loader specs to infer the load capacity of CK axles? Of course they aren't as strong as a commercial, integrated TLB.... so is that your point?

 

[GManBart]

A man with as many tractors as you should know better than to say that flow dictates lift capability. It does not. Pressure and cylinder size are the dominant factors. Flow has no bearing whatsoever, as long as you have some at all. You should know better.

Sorry, I meant to say capacity/pressure rather than flow rate which only really changes cycle times (assuming identical cylinders).

The point is that the CK and L35 are similar in size, and the Kubota weighs 1,000lbs more....it's built that much heavier, because it has to be. The CK isn't remotely as heavy in the front end/axles as a TLB would be. I didn't notice a huge difference when I compared it to an LS R3039, and I did look at both front and rear axles as a gauge for how heavily the machines were built.

I have 600 hours in the seat of a Kioti, moving 10's of thousands of pounds of materials. How much seat time do you have on a CK? Many, many TBN users operate their rigs in similar fashion with few reporting ill effects. I can recall one front end problem on a CK20 and maybe a couple on DK40's in the thousands of posts I've read on TBN over the past 8 years. And these were not necessarily attributed to overloading the front end. Now putting a set of forks or a stump prying apparatus on the loader, one could abuse the tractor and get into unsafe situations. I'm not contesting that at all. The further out front the load, the greater the potential for damage or accident. But, not if just using the little bitty loader bucket these tractors have. Lifting to the capacity of the bucket: a piece of cake for these CKs.

The size of the CK axles was a chief differentiator when I was buying. The competitors where much lighter. Perhaps that is where you are coming from. I work my machines as they are intended, but have never abused them. And safety is always first in my mind. My 8 year Kioti still looks and operates like new, much like my 19 year old garden tractor and just about everything else I own. You say beat up, operate unsafe. I say you don't know what you are talking about. And BTW, I am an engineer and do have a thorough knowledge of mechanics.

That's great. It still doesn't change that Kioti specifies 700lbs on the 3pt for FEL operations. In fact, the current TL130 manual makes a clear differentiation between counterweight, and tire weights/fluid. There is a paragraph that says something like "the correct counterweight must be used for safe loader operation". The next paragraph says that adding weight to the tires will increase traction, and can make for more efficient loader operation.

So, go tell Kioti they don't know what they're talking about.

As an engineer you should know that the use of forks, or a load way out on an FEL won't change the maximum amount of force it can apply to the axles, because relief valve will engage, and you won't be able to lift more than it's supposed to.

 

[GManBart]

To the OP. If you get loaded R4 tires, you can safely use the loader bucket to full capacity without any counterweight. Not saying counter weight wouldn't be better. But, you can do so and max out the loader without fear of the back tires leaving the ground. I've stalled my loader hundreds of times with no rear attachment and tires stayed firmly planted. And I have a bolt on bucket without the quick attach. So, I have a little bit more power than you will have due to the quick attach. You will be OK. If you plan to put forks on or other attachment that puts the load far out in front, please use a counterweight.

Kioti disagrees with this. Stop giving the guy bad advice already. From the current KL130 manual:

"The use of adequate counterweight to counter balance for maximum loader capacity is required for safe loader operation"

BTW, this is listed under "Warranty Conditions".....hint!
http://www.gobookee.net/get_book.ph...pbCBIZW5yaWsgQSBGb2cgQS9TIC0gSGVucmlrIC4uLg==