$3.37 Gas & $3.58 Diesel - Thrilled.

[Rob-D]

Rob,
I wish I could do it with 400 kWh/month. We have 100% electric house. The biggest user is our geothermal unit followed by lights. We have about 60 can lights in the house.

60 incandescents?
OK, let's say each light is on two hours a day and the average wattage is a 60 watt bulb. That's 60 Wh x 2 x 60 or 7.2Kw/day x 30 = 216 Kw/month just in lighting. CFL's run 9 watts for the equivalent 60 watt output.

That's 32.4 Kw/month. Your lights are costing you about 6.66 times more than CFL's which, by the way, are more efficient than LEDs although LEDs are catching up. I get all the Electronic Engineering trade journals and the big chip manufacturers are going all out to make high efficient LED drive chips.

R

 

[dcyrilc]

Rob,

I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but we have to get the breaks off some of this stuff as well. We have a creek which runs across our property which would be great for power. I've looked at it several times, but when I made inquiries at the county they want a $500,000 environmental impact statement just to look at any plans. Without a permit, your looking at jail time so fast your head would spin. We continually deal with attempts at fining us just for maintaining around the cabin we have on the creek which was built in the 1940s.:confused2:

Wind? Other than the occasional storm... we just don't get any.

Solar? With all the raining or overcast days we get, I just don't see that being all that effective either. We had 14 days that didn't rain last summer.:confused2: With enough panals to could be done, but it gets back to cost vs effectivness.


Now when we move to New Mexico after I retire.....
...you better believe I'll be looking at solar and other options.:thumbsup: I would absolutely love to be off grid.

 

[Redneck in training]

60 incandescents?
OK, let's say each light is on two hours a day and the average wattage is a 60 watt bulb. That's 60 Wh x 2 x 60 or 7.2Kw/day x 30 = 216 Kw/month just in lighting. CFL's run 9 watts for the equivalent 60 watt output.

That's 32.4 Kw/month. Your lights are costing you about 6.66 times more than CFL's which, by the way, are more efficient than LEDs although LEDs are catching up. I get all the Electronic Engineering trade journals and the big chip manufacturers are going all out to make high efficient LED drive chips.

R

Although we have 60 lights only 10 in the kitchen are on about 8 - 10 hours/day. Don't ask me why. The problem with SF is they dim very poorly. I figured those 10 LEDs will pay for themselves in about 2 years. The rest of the light would be hard to justify right now.

 

[Redneck in training]

That's an interesting point. I'm wondering how much my 4 ton geo will draw? It's something I'll have to research before I fully commit to it.

How efficient are the compressors? I guess I could work it from BTU's. If water comes into the compressor at 45F and we want 68F that's 23F change plus the efficiency of the compressor plus the efficiency of the pump moving the water.

R

The water/glycol mix entering the outside loop heat exchanger can be as low as 35F. The temperature of the liquid entering our floor heating is set to 90F.
The compressor and all loop pumps consume little less than 5kW. The heat output (according to manufacturer data) should be about 18.5 kW (63000 BTU/h).

I designed a program for PLC that integrates HW heater and the Geo such a way that HW is heated by the Geo as much as possible and by direct heating only when Geo is not running. I essence the HW is heated by direct heat only at spring and fall when geo doesn't run.

 

[Rob-D]

Rob,

I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but we have to get the breaks off some of this stuff as well. We have a creek which runs across our property which would be great for power. I've looked at it several times, but when I made inquiries at the county they want a $500,000 environmental impact statement just to look at any plans. Without a permit, your looking at jail time so fast your head would spin. We continually deal with attempts at fining us just for maintaining around the cabin we have on the creek which was built in the 1940s.:confused2:

Wind? Other than the occasional storm... we just don't get any.

Solar? With all the raining or overcast days we get, I just don't see that being all that effective either. We had 14 days that didn't rain last summer.:confused2: With enough panals to could be done, but it gets back to cost vs effectivness.


Now when we move to New Mexico after I retire.....
...you better believe I'll be looking at solar and other options.:thumbsup: I would absolutely love to be off grid.

My stream feeds the NYC water shed about 150 miles away. The policy here is that you can run a system for your own use but if you want to start selling it than you have to deal with permits and such.

I understand your fear at repercussions for using the stream but you might want to check around (quietly!) to see what you can do that will be overlooked like I did.

As for PV we live in the second rainiest area to Seattle so it's not as bad as you might think.

Here's an accurate link to determining how well you'll do:

PVWATTS v. 1

Remember something about alternate energy. Something is always happening. Wind and PV compliment each other very well. Microhydro is the best because you get it 24/7.

The trick with wind is that you have to go up. If you go to Southwest Windpower's site you can find out exactly how much wind you have, they even have satellite images of your house and land!

Land is power.

R

 

[Transit]

On the TV news this morning are more complaints about the high cost of gas. Protests are not going to do a thing. State governments have a wind fall interest because of the sales tax that falls in to there hands. We are so screwed.

 

[dcyrilc]

My stream feeds the NYC water shed about 150 miles away. The policy here is that you can run a system for your own use but if you want to start selling it than you have to deal with permits and such.

I understand your fear at repercussions for using the stream but you might want to check around (quietly!) to see what you can do that will be overlooked like I did.

As for PV we live in the second rainiest area to Seattle so it's not as bad as you might think.

Here's an accurate link to determining how well you'll do:

PVWATTS v. 1

Remember something about alternate energy. Something is always happening. Wind and PV compliment each other very well. Microhydro is the best because you get it 24/7.

The trick with wind is that you have to go up. If you go to Southwest Windpower's site you can find out exactly how much wind you have, they even have satellite images of your house and land!

Land is power.

R

Our issue with the creek is that it's a salmon spawing stream and is monitored closely by the state. They physically walk the creek twice a year.

I wish we had as much sun as Seattle. Here in the convergence zone, it often will rain when Seattle is sunny or partly so.

I'll check the site you linked to as well as trying to find Southwest's site. I know the flag on our 45ft flag pole seldom does anything but hang limp. Maybe once every two or three weeks it will move around some.

 

[Rob-D]

Our issue with the creek is that it's a salmon spawing stream and is monitored closely by the state. They physically walk the creek twice a year.

I wish we had as much sun as Seattle. Here in the convergence zone, it often will rain when Seattle is sunny or partly so.

I'll check the site you linked to as well as trying to find Southwest's site. I know the flag on our 45ft flag pole seldom does anything but hang limp. Maybe once every two or three weeks it will move around some.

Cyril,
Sounds like you're in a tough spot. What I would do is ask the guys when they walk the creek if you could put in an underflow wheel which is the least invasive environmental solution. Even the DEC (Dept. of Environment Conservation) will let you put them in controlled streams here for your own use.

Rob

 

[dcyrilc]

Cyril,
Sounds like you're in a tough spot. What I would do is ask the guys when they walk the creek if you could put in an underflow wheel which is the least invasive environmental solution. Even the DEC (Dept. of Environment Conservation) will let you put them in controlled streams here for your own use.

Rob

I agree with the idea of an underflow wheel. To me, it's the most practical and our creek runs a pretty constant speed even when flooded. We even have a hole in front of the cabin which would be ideal for it. It's the issue of the requirements to permit it vs the return. The costs would just never balance out, even if I could afford that kind of money.

Dealing with the state would be the easier part of it all. It's our county which is the real deal killer.

It's humorus to watch adds for the county on TV where they talk about how much they support small farms after almost destroying the local farming industry. About 10 years ago, the county was requiring local farms to get clearing and grading permints to plow their fields or face stiff fines. To get the permit, they required the farmers to do environmental impact statements and put 2-5% of the applicable field(s) into protected habitat for before they would issue a permit for the remainder. This was required every time a farmer needed to plow a field. The farmers eliminated this requirement by getting an inititave on the ballot and getting it passed. The inititave simply stated that Normal Farming Operations were Exempt from the UBC (Unified Building Code).

Local News | Snohomish County farm initiative a hot button | Seattle Times Newspaper
"In addition, the current code says those exemptions don't apply on lands within environmentally critical areas, which include wetlands, salmon habitat, aquifer-recharge areas and geologically unsafe lands. Grading permits, therefore, could theoretically be required for plowing in those cases."

Here in Western Washington, nearly all farmland (bottom land) qualifies as wetlands and that was the criteria that the county was using to require permits.

 

[Rob-D]

I agree with the idea of an underflow wheel. To me, it's the most practical and our creek runs a pretty constant speed even when flooded. We even have a hole in front of the cabin which would be ideal for it. It's the issue of the requirements to permit it vs the return. The costs would just never balance out, even if I could afford that kind of money.

Dealing with the state would be the easier part of it all. It's our county which is the real deal killer.

It's humorus to watch adds for the county on TV where they talk about how much they support small farms after almost destroying the local farming industry. About 10 years ago, the county was requiring local farms to get clearing and grading permints to plow their fields or face stiff fines. To get the permit, they required the farmers to do environmental impact statements and put 2-5% of the applicable field(s) into protected habitat for before they would issue a permit for the remainder. This was required every time a farmer needed to plow a field. The farmers eliminated this requirement by getting an inititave on the ballot and getting it passed. The inititave simply stated that Normal Farming Operations were Exempt from the UBC (Unified Building Code).

Local News | Snohomish County farm initiative a hot button | Seattle Times Newspaper
"In addition, the current code says those exemptions don't apply on lands within environmentally critical areas, which include wetlands, salmon habitat, aquifer-recharge areas and geologically unsafe lands. Grading permits, therefore, could theoretically be required for plowing in those cases."

Here in Western Washington, nearly all farmland (bottom land) qualifies as wetlands and that was the criteria that the county was using to require permits.

Not to get off on a tangent here but local farmers have been devastated here too.
Big business owns this country, when you have companies like ADM and Monsanto suing small farmers because Monsanto's GMO seed blows onto local farmers' fields you know things aren't right.
You simply can't beat the lobbies, we have a few farmers holding on but big business is out to control all the land and all the water up here.
Not a pretty picture!
R