3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO

/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #1  

EdMTU

New member
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Messages
7
Location
Da U.P. of Michigan
I am a student at Mich. Tech. Univ. and for my Sr. design project I am trying to modify a rear-mounted International Harvester Model 70 snowblower so that it will run off of the front PTO. Gearing down will be accomplish by a chain drive but I am having trouble visualizing how I am gonna run the PTO shaft down the belly of the tractor. The frame of the blower has already been designed and will be modified to fit on the bucket attachments of the loader arms. If anyone has seen anything like this or better yet has some pictures of something similar to this it would help me out greatly.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #2  
Try a search on front snowblower. Front PTO powered ones are typically mounted to the tractor frame not loader. You'd need some kind of safety lockout to be sure you didn't move the loader too high & bust up the driveshaft.

You could run a hydraulic pump on the PTO & put a hydraulic motor on the Snowblower. Might be expensive, but check out princedirect, baileys online or surpluss supply. There are links on this thread hydraulic cylinder

Good luck from a fellow ME.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO
  • Thread Starter
#3  
I should have probably clarified what I have tried to do already. Hydraulics were my first choice for sure but due to expense of the project the decision was to use front PTO. The reason to hook up to the bucket attachment is for a quick attach/detach type of blower. But I do appreciate any suggestions.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #4  
Welcome to TBN!

I agree with Hazmat that unless you had some kind of lockout, you could lift the blower and hit the driveshaft on something, or worse, the driveshaft halves could seperate and you'd beat the underside of the tractor to death until it stopped spinning.

Hydraulic drive for the blower would be the only way to give you the option to lift the blower with the FEL arms any appreciable amount.

What would it take? Hmmm.... A mount for the blower in place of the bucket. Need that with either PTO or Hydraulic drive. You'd need proper GPM from the tractor. If the tractor is big enough, you might have enough already. If not, you'd need a PTO hydraulic pump, reservoir, etc... Then you'd need hoses to get to the front of the tractor. And, of course, a hydraulic motor for the blower.

Sooo, figure out how many GPM motor you would need to drive the model 70 blower then see if the tractor hydraulics are within range. If so, I'd go the hydraulic route. If not, I'd go with a front frame mounted design for the PTO blower and skip the FEL mount.

Sounds like a great project. Keep us informed as to what you decide. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #5  
I'd hate to make a mistake and raise the loader to high! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #6  
EdMTU they are right, a snow blower mounted on the FEL arms and powered by a spinning PTO shaft is an accident looking for a place to happen. Better refigure, powering it with the tractors hydraulics instead.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #7  
Provenost builds some hydraulic drive units that go on the loader but 60" is about it using a supplied pump.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO
  • Thread Starter
#8  
We did have all the hydraulics that we wanted to make this work for us but the total cost ended up being to high. We wanted to use Prince HCPK-11C PTO Hydraulic Pump with 40 GPM @ 1000 RPM and 2250 PSI and Char-Lynn 10,000 Series
with Continuous RPM of 429 and Continuous Torque 500 ft-lbs. We wanted the create a beast, but this all this, then hoses, and a tank that we would manufacture it comes out to around 1000 bucks. I will let you know what we come up with, but until then if you have any suggestions they are certainly welcome.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #9  
Re: 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/fr

Would it be possible to use the tractor hydraulics instead? Then you could omit the pump and tank.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #10  
<font color="blue"> We did have all the hydraulics that we wanted to make this work for us but the total cost ended up being to high. We wanted to use Prince HCPK-11C PTO Hydraulic Pump with 40 GPM @ 1000 RPM and 2250 PSI and Char-Lynn 10,000 Series
with Continuous RPM of 429 and Continuous Torque 500 ft-lbs. We wanted the create a beast, but this all this, then hoses, and a tank that we would manufacture it comes out to around 1000 bucks. </font>

Sounds like a beast! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What tractor were you planning on using this on and what was the available GPM and PSI on that tractor? Just curious. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #11  
What about self powering the snowblower with a 20hp engine?

That may make this easier. You'd have to run start, kill and throttle controls up the loader arm back to the area of the valve.

Regards,
Chris
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #12  
That is the main problem with configuring a snow blower for front mounting. The extra hardware needed to make it work quickly escalates the price for the snow blower coming right out of the starting gate. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif This is a prime consideration for a lower priced 3-point mounted unit.

If front mounted snow blowers were inexpensive everyone here at the TBN web site would own one including myself.

Good luck with your project I hope you can figure a way to make it happen within your budget.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #13  
What size tractor are you planning to put this on?

Your numbers indicate 40 GPM and 500 #-ft of torque. 500 lbs-ft is a ton of torque! Think about it, Dodge Vipers and big turbo diesels make that kind of juice. And their engines are 5+ literes.

Are you sure your calculations are right? It just seems like a lot of torque feeding a snowblower impeller. Unless of course your blower is going to be really BIG?
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #14  
Pks:

If he is going to use the blower in Houghton-Hancock, it better be BIG.

That is BIG SNOW COUNTRY.

My brother in law graduated from Michigan Tech. He is a ME with Ford. All there is to do up there in the winter is school, party and drink beer.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #15  
Re: 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/fr

The hydraulic idea would be best, even given expense. Then you do not have to worry about the pto shaft hitting anything.

Another idea, is to fashion a multi piece drive shaft, much like you would find on a long-bed xcab pickup. Run the first shaft section from the mid-pto to the front of the tractor. End that shaft at a pillow block. Run a second shaft from the pillow block to your attachment. The second shaft shold be able to expand and collapse, just like a regular pto shaft. With a u-joint at the pillow block, you should have some flexibility to raise and lower the loader arms.

If you got fancy, you could be a hydraulic limit switch on the loader arms, limiting how high it can lift while the snowblower is installed on the loader.

Go out and look under a pickup, or a big moving type van. The engine/tranny is effectively in a fixed position. The driveshaft leaves the tranny, and goes to a pillow block partway to the rear of the truck. The pillowblock is in a fixed position, attached to a frame crossmember.

From that point, the drive saft connects to the pillow block with a u-joint. It terminates at the rear axle. Note, the rear axle can and does move up and down.

Shazam!

Another thing, as long as you have to pull the loader bucket... Add the universal skidsteer attachment to the loader arms, bucket, and snow blower. It'll be a lot easy to align, install, and remove the bucket and snow blower.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #16  
Daryl,

That's basically what I was trying to ferrit out. I too did my undergrad in the UP and yes 300+ inches a year is a lot. But Ed really didn't mention specific sizes. I think he mentioned a "...beast".

For up there and his "beast" notation... I suppose he's working with a 50+ inch impeller. I just wanted to make sure that's all. My ME background tells me his PTO shaft is going to look more like a two inch diameter driveline.

It will be interesting to see what Ed comes up with.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Re: limiting FEL MOVEMENT

I was thinking about the safety involved with the FEL being raised to high and brainstormed the following.
1. Use a chain to limit the upward movement.
2. Disconnect the tilt control on the FEL

what do you think of this? Would this make sure the operator wouldn't break the drive shaft. Also, if there were drive shaft loops under the tractor like on racing vehicles then it would at least make a drive breakage less costly.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #18  
Re: limiting FEL MOVEMENT

Ed,

Since the snow blower was originally for a 3 pt mount, then I'll assume it has a PTO drive attachment yoke in the unit's center (left to right). If so, then you could supply a drive line (PTO shaft) to that location. The shaft would need to be supported at the front of the tractor. That front support would be aft of a universal joint which would allow for raising the blower unit.

The amount of lift would be somewhat more than you would normally see at the 3 pt. This is due to my assumption that (on the 3 pt) the distance between the blower and the PTO (on the tractor) is less than the my assumed distance from the loader mounted blower and the proposed PTO location on the front of the tractor.

In other words, if the the blower were at the same distance on the loader as it was on the 3 pt lift, you could lift it approximately that much. The angles in the PTO shaft universal joints can handle that. As a rule of thumb, as long as the u-joint angles, in the loader setup, do not exceed the angles created by the 3 pt lift, you'll be OK.

I think the proposed location for the PTO shaft, front support bearing, would be best if it were to allow the new front u-joint to be in front of any frame or cowling by about 2 inches.

There's one thing that must also be mentioned. PTO shafts, like the one on my 3 pt finish mower, can extend and contract like a slip joint. My mower's PTO shaft can go from 20 inches to about 38 inches. A shaft like that might be necessary in your situation. I think you'd be able to raise the blower with the loader arms about 20 inches before the u-joint angles went to the extremes.

The operation of the loader arms must be limited is some fashion. I think your idea of a chain is perfect. You might consider adding a limit switch to turn on a light for the operator. Also, if $ allows, you can get hydraulic travel limiters that stop the flow of oil when an actuator reaches a specific position. So you could stop the flow of oil to the lift cylinders after they traveled a predetermined length.

What tractor are you putting this on?

Are the hydraulics operated by electric solenoids?

For a couple hundred bucks, you could purchase an electricly operated hydraulic valve that would raise the loader arms a certain amount and then automatically stop raising. An electrical limit switch would supply the signal to the solenoid and tell it to turn off the oil flow, during the raise cycle. The same could be set up for the lowering cycle. That way the operator would flip the switch into the UP position and the blower would raise to its predetermined height and then stop. The switch would then return to the normal "off" position. This is the same concept as used in today's new cars on the driverside window. Hit the switch (but not hold it) and the window goes down all the way down.

Your idea of drive shaft collars, for safety, is good too. I will guess that the IHRA has guidelines for size, spacing, strength etc.

I rather envy your project. My ME senior project was to design and build an antenna/probe for a space satellite. I think it launched on a Delta 4 rocket in June '02.

I like snow blowers better. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Good luck.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #19  
Re: limiting FEL MOVEMENT

Pks:

You could run even more extreme angles on the drive line by incorporating a Double Cardan joint in the drive line or opting for CV Joints. The limiting factor in deflection on a standard U joint is when the yoke hits the trunnion. However, the life of a standard U joint is considerably less at more severe angles of deflection whereas a CV joint or Double Cardan joint can withstand severe angles of deflection with little reduction in operating life. For high horsepower and high rpm applications a Double Cardan joint is the way to go. For lower horsepower applications but applications of high shock load, the CV joint is superior.
 
/ 3pt snowblower coversion to bucket attach w/frPTO #20  
Re: limiting FEL MOVEMENT

Daryl,

I agree completely. The CV joints can be expensive, at least they are on my car. I had forgotten about the Dbl. Carden joints.

I think the limiting factor now would be the location of the front support. But I expecet the front area of the tractor should be open enough to locate things easily. Then, going with the Dbl Carden joint, he'd be all set.

Sure hope we get to see some photos of this as it gets put together and while clearing snow. This baby is going to be sweet! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 

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