3R Home and Barn Project

[tommu56]

Loretta
Im sure your inverters are FX on page 25 of the printed manual it shows how to hook up 3 inverters up in a 120v 1 phase 208v 3 phase arraignment

I misunderstood in your solar thread I thought that all 6 inverters were hooked to gen(which meant you couldn't get 3 phase from them with gen being 1 phase)

The rotary or even a static phase converter are not very efficient it will take roughly 1.75 to 2 times the motor current in the 2 240v legs to get the 1 amp 3 phase out.

Your contractor is most likely not too familiar with 120v 208 v 3 phase power it is used in most of the plants I have worked in to get 120v from the 480v 3 phase supplied from our sub stations.

RavensRoost
The veris ct I linked to has a switch in it that you can adjust the trip point to activate another piece of equipment ( we use them to turn on cooling pumps when a compressor starts for example).

Another option would be put "drive" on your mill for example it would take 1 phase in and give you 3 phase out and variable speed.then you wouldn't need phase converter.

It would way to much to rewire shop power and add an other inventor to get the 3 phase and not connect it to generator and use the house inverts to charge bank if its low to get power to shop.

some we use at work are lenze-actec SMV

model................hp....kw....amps
ESV251N02SXB 0.33 0.25 1.7
ESV371N02YXB 0.5 0.37 2.4
ESV751N02YXB 1 0.75 4.2
ESV112N02YXB 1.5 1.1 6.0
ESV152N02YXB 2 1.5 7.0
ESV222N02YXB 3 2.2 9.6

Lenze-ACTech SMVector Series

tommu

 

[GuglioLS]

Rob and Loretta,

After reviewing the wiring diagrams, manuals and some of the brochures, I do believe it would be more efficient to have all 6 outbacks "stacked" (one master and 5 slaves) as opposed to 4 stacked for the home and 2 for the shop. The way it is now there are two independent master controllers / inverters, One for the home and the other for the shop. In that configuration, the shop cannot be run on generator power, the master for the shop is drawing current when the shop sits idle. If the system were to be re-configured as one, (one master five slaves - the idle efficiency could be improved by up to 50%. Additional benefits would be more surge current available to the home and shop as well as the shop being able to operate on generator power. Is there some limiting factor why the shop was only given 2 inverters? I remember there are two external watt meters, one for the home and one for the shop. The idea being power consumed in the shop could be "sold" to the business for tax purposes. Having two watt meters - one for home and one for shop is still possible even if the system were re-configured as one master and five slaves. I also believe Rob's 3 phase converter motor in the shop will start on it's own having two times more surge capacity.

The programing manual is 44 pages!!! Most, if not all the acronyms are not explained, I now understand how your solar installer dude might be confused. Maybe a call to the manufacture is in order to confirm or deny some of my suggestions and to maybe get the stories straight that are coming from your installer. If you do that, maybe have them send you a dictionary to define all the acronyms. No doubt there are several important programing considerations relating to battery charging, absorption, hold time and generator on / off times.

Last visit, I remember reading the manual for the battery's, it specifically stated topping them off using distilled water only. Your solar installer is dead wrong to be adding acid and may be voiding any warranty by doing so. If in doubt call the battery manufacture. The reason for the battery's boiling off so fast may be due to over charging, a condition that can be corrected by re-equalizing the system through the menu system on the master inverter controller.

As pointed out, the system can be configured for three phase but doing so at this juncture is out of the question from an efficiency standpoint, as three inverters would need be dedicated solely to the shop, the shop wiring and wires going to it would have to be changed. And then again, the shop could not be operated off the single phase generator and you would loose one inverter going to the home. I really believe it in your best interest to re-configure the system as one master and five slaves, (IMHO).

Larry

 

[GuglioLS]

I see the PDF attachments do not work - seems there is a programming issue with the TBN forum code? Maybe it's the parentheses () or the dashes- contained in the file name?

I changed the file names and up loaded again.

One more thought about battery charge programing - I wonder if somehow he as the system programing messed up such that the inverters are trying to charge the batteries from inverted power? - (trying to charge themselves at the same time the solar panels are charging?) Is that even possible?


Larry

 

[tommu56]

Rob / Loretta did you check out the outback forum you might want to post some Questions there about the best way to set your systems up.

http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=caf4b6b2a81a0759e899cae97e6c8a5b
tommu

 

[3RRL]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
The installer is coming Sunday to do the initial start up battery charge. Hahaha.
We'll be sure to pick his brain and run all these scenarios by him. Wonder what he's going to say?

Tom, Loretta is on a solar forum and has gotten a lot of help already. Bruce (ravesroost) is a poster on one of them and he has send some PM's with guys that can help. Thanks Bruce.

Larry, your pdf's came through for me the first time?
I think I'll ask the installer to hook all 6 converters together. It seems like a good option at this point. It would be nice to have generator poser to the shop instead of working only through the batteries. Plus if I know I'm going to use the 3 phase converter, I could remotely start the generator to have access to it's current supply for starting the motor if nothing else.

So here's the latest.
I tried to start the 3phase motor again and the breaker tripped again ... or so I thought. You remember there is a 40 amp breaker in the shop sub panel that the motor is connected to. Well, last time it did not trip that breaker but tripped the 50 amp breaker to the shop (or so I thought). Then the 2 inverters had to be restarted because they had a failure. Today it did the same thing, except I noticed that the 40 amp sub panel again did not trip. I went to the shed to reset the 50 amp breaker to the shop and guess what ... it did not trip either. As a matter of fact, it did not trip the first time either ... I just thought it did. The inverters shut down again like last time, so I restarted them like last time, but this time I did not reset the 50 amp breaker at the shed (to the shop) nor the 40 amp in the shop sub panel. I got my volt meter out and there was electricity to the shop again, proving that neither of the breakers tripped at all. Only the Inverters shut down.

Loretta looked up the error codes and there were 2 of them:
"high battery voltage" and "ac output shorted".
Upon sending that information to the installer, his response was that the 7.2kW to the shop may not be enough. He also said that the response from the inverters shutting down was probably faster than the breakers tripping. That it was like a direct AC short and the inverters protect themselves.
Now, we must have a million breakers to the home and to the barn. Does that mean none of them will ever trip? Will we always be having to restart the inverters? That doesn't make sense to me.

At Rancho I had that 10hp motor on a 40 amp breaker and it NEVER tripped starting it EVER. I had the entire 3 phase system on that breaker so once in a while when the 10hp motor was running and I started the lathe and my son started a mill at exactly the same time, plus the air compressor would start, it would trip that breaker. But other than that, it never tripped. So I don't think there is a direct short either. Like I said, the motor wants to start ... it starts humming and then the inverters stop. The Outback manual says the inverters (each, I think) have up to 70 amps for surge start, so obviously we're not getting that. If the motor drew more than 70 amps, I would have tripped the breaker at Rancho every time. I think there is something else wrong? Maybe it all leads back to the batteries not having a full charge?

Oh, and to top it off, there was a baby rattlesnake in the bottom of the staircase leading to the basement where my computer is.

 

[denmansoft]

Rob:
Your inverters might trip off much quicker than a braker would. Motor start up can put 2-3 times its normal load on startup for say one second. A breaker will normally not trip that quickly. The inverter may trip at 50ms of 150% load.
Also the rotary converter does do some weird kind of surges on the 2 legs of 240.
The inverters are trying to create a stable sine wave at 60hz by adjusting power from the batteries at something like 10khz to 150khz. If it fails to generate a good sine wave for say 2 cycles it may consider it a fault/short.
To handle the surges of your shop I think all 6 inverters will need to share the load.

Another option is to get your rotary converter out of the picture.
We use the 'AC Drives' from Automation Direct (The best way to buy industrial controls--low prices, fast shipping and superior service.) to run 3phase machines from single phase 240VAC.
The GS2-23P0 will handle a 3hp 3ph motor. These will do a soft start and probably be much nicer on your inverters. With the small size and low price it might be better to put one of them on each of your 3 phase machines.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have no inverter experience except for my 1990 Stattpower 1500 watt mounted in my service vehicle.

I called the company because it would trip every time I used my electric compressor rated well below the inverters 1500 watt. Stattpower told me to start with a smaller road first and then switch on the the compressor so the inverter would not be in sleep mode.

Now, I turn on my 60 watt trouble light before the compressor and no more trouble.

Just a thought.

 

[tommu56]

Ultrarunner I sorta had the same problem the other way though
I couldent get the microwave to wake up the invertor (couldent get key pad to light up to put numbers in and light is off too)

I have to turn on the kitchen light (2 40 watts florsent lamps) microwave then will come on and start and run.

I did change wake up point so the tv and and some other don't wake up invertor and i have to turn on a light then hit remote to turn on tv.

tommu

 

[ultrarunner]

Rotary Phase Converter...

I use a small Rotary Phase Converter to run my Bridgeport Mill.

To start the Converter I have to give the Converter Shaft a spin and while it's spinning, turn on the power and I'm good to go.

It's worked this way for 20 years. I also have a large Devilbiss Compressor that has it's own converter that I have to "Spin" start.

If I don't spin start... there is a one in two chance the converter will "Hum" and trip the breaker.

Just another thought.

 

[3RRL]

I do have a couple static phase converters for one machine each. I could try those, but they are not nearly as good the the 10hp rotary controller. They don't give me full power and I can't reverse the mill motor ... it will continue to run in the same direction. But I can try them and at least get a mill running. The big problem will be with the 7-1/2hp lathe I have since it needs a larger converter than the 2hp mills.

I tried spinning the 10hp motor and then switching on the power ... no luck. It does the same thing. Maybe I'm not spinning it fast enough? I need to hook up a pulley to the shaft so I can use a starting rope. I haven't tried that yet.
I'm wondering if my 20kW generator will run the 10hp motor? I think it puts out near 90 amps. Perhaps I could wire it up so that I use the generator only when running the lathe? My thoughts are if I can get the motor running, I could then switch back to solar since it is running already. The solar won't need to start the big motor, just keep it going? Then I could shut off the generator.
Does that sound like it's possible? I was going to try it with a 5550 watt generator first, but I don't know if it's big enough to start the motor. I could try it, I guess?
The suggestion of hooking all 6 inverters together would be the next thing to try. The contractor is coming tomorrow (Sunday) so I'll ask him to do that. It would be great if all we had to do was that. But he is still working on getting the batteries to hold a full charge. That's why he's coming, to give the system it's initial charge. I don't get it, because you'd think all the times the generator ran, sometimes for a long period, that would have happened already. I'm wondering if that might have something to do with it?