3rd function valve

[J_J]

ishiboo,

You said. Are you just ranting and raving about semantics now, JJ, or does this thread have pending value we are not party to yet?

******

This thread does have valve as some people misuse the term and don't understand how it works and when to use it.

To me, it is simply just another valve. The valve has nothing to do with me.

Give it whatever name you want to.

I am so sorry that I upset some people about trying to find the answer about the 3rd function valve, NOT REALLY, but I thought someone might just know the true answer to the true 3rd function valve.

Alas, I have failed. I am so ashamed. Not really.

I will strive to find the answer.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Are you just ranting and raving about semantics now, JJ, or does this thread have pending value we are not party to yet?

The third function is the accessory function for a loader. Period. That is why the term was coined. It's blatantly obvious as that is how everyone who sells one markets it - it relates to loader attachments and there are already two functions for every loader it's marketed for. Now if someone wants to use it to refer to the 3rd of 15 remotes they have on the back of their tractor, the last being the 15th function valve, that's fine... it's just not the purpose or intent of the name.

When you say 3rd function valve to me, it means a valve to add a hydraulic accessory to a loader. Period.

To you, it might be called a JJ valve. Or if you think it makes more sense to count the 3 point in marketing a loader accessory valve, then I guess you could call it the 4th function valve. But on a hydro tractor, isn't the hydrostatic drive itself a valve? So maybe it's a 5th function valve. Unless you have power steering. Then it's a 6th function valve.

Need another in back to match the 2 already you have? Add a rear remote. Or a mid remote for those not in back. Or a rear SCV. Or a front remote for your snowblower. Or whatever.

From this point forward, I'm referring to it as a doohickey.

You my friend you are WRONG, it is not a doohickey, I believe that they are called a whatchamacallit, or is it a thingamajig??? :confused3:

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I believe that someone coined that term when they wanted to add a third valve, not spool. However I don't know for sure.

That was the purpose of the post to find out what the 3rd function is and where the term came from.

The first valve on just about any tractor is the 3pt valve.

I don't believe that it has anything to do with where or how many valves the tractor has, I believe that it is in relation to the 3rd available function on the loader.

Loaders are an add on with one valve and two spools.

I don't relate the 3rd function to the loader, however it is sometimes associated with a loader. Please show an example where someone other than yourself used the 3rd function term in relation to a valve used some place other than a loader.

I think the term is misused a lot. Again, where?

I also don't think the manufacturers even talk about their valve as being a 3rd function.

[URL="http://www.kubota.com/configurator/BuildMyKubota.aspx?pgId=1&bmId=933&sId=126"]Here is what Kubota calls it.[/URL]

The people that put together a solenoid kit call them a true 3rd function and they are used in different situations like what you are doing.

I call my systems either a diverter 3rd function system or a true 3rd function system.

I consider a diverter valve an aux or secondary valve.

Which they are when used in that manner, when used on a loader, it then becomes a 3rd function valve.

If my tractor only had the 3pt for hyd, and I wanted to add a valve for an attachment with a hyd motor, would I be adding a 3rd function valve, or just a solenoid valve with subplate?

You would be adding an AUX control valve.

Can you have say, three separate 3rd function valves? Could there be a forth and fifth function. Why not.

If they are all to be used on the loader, then yes you can have as many as you want.

Sure it is terminology, but it would be nice to know the starting point.

I agree, where did it start? But I don't believe that there is a hard dictionary definition per se.

Here is a loader valve with a third spool. Would you call that a 3rd function, or just another spool for, say a grapple. ?

3 SPOOL 25 GPM JOYSTICK LOADER VALVE W/GRAPPLE

I would call the 3rd valve a 3rd function valve if it controls a 3rd function used on the FEL.

If I go to Surplus and search for a 3rd function valve, , it comes up with no results, however there are valves and subplates that one could put together and say, make a true 3rd function valve.

Because it is not a 3rd function valve until it is installed for that use.

If you search the net for 3rd function valve,you might come up with some manufacturers such as WR Long and a few others that have put together a kit, and a lot of listings for TBN questions about 3rd function valves.

Until you find a for sure written definition, I consider the phrase "3rd function" nothing other than tractor slang.

 

[the old grind]

C'mon, guys. Once in a while I get peeved when someone 'misuses' a term, tho' I learned to keep my own opinion to myself before folks take sides and get ranty.

Example: "There is no God!" IMO, that depends entirely on one's own definition.

Perhaps this attempt at clarification is drawing the wrong attention, and I apologize to J_J if I was any part of that. Yeah, this stuff can be confusing when you pick it apart, and maybe that's where some of us get bogged in the semantics.

btw: I won't hold a single word said in frustration against any of you guys who showed up here, lest I don't keep learning from ya's.

Anywhere but here on TBN all my implements and attachments are 'gadgets' or 'gizmos' to onlookers and I won't try to explain the finer points if they don't ask.

 

[ishiboo]

ishiboo,

You said. Are you just ranting and raving about semantics now, JJ, or does this thread have pending value we are not party to yet?

******

This thread does have valve as some people misuse the term and don't understand how it works and when to use it.

To me, it is simply just another valve. The valve has nothing to do with me.

Give it whatever name you want to.

I am so sorry that I upset some people about trying to find the answer about the 3rd function valve, NOT REALLY, but I thought someone might just know the true answer to the true 3rd function valve.

Alas, I have failed. I am so ashamed. Not really.

I will strive to find the answer.

Not at all... just wondering about the purpose as some of the posts were rather random Nobody is upset that I'm aware

:beer:

 

[skyhook]

Personally, I think this thread is a "hooked on phonics" thread,,
I like it, it makes you think and derive answers from "misused terms".
I mean, there's enough confusion in hydraulics, let alone, miss-use of the terms.
Example: You have a 2 spool set-up, you now add a third, this< I think is a true 3rd function valve.
If you tap into any of these, they would become "auxiliary" 1a,, 2a,, or 3a,,valves,
that control an offset of those function valves. I think....lol

 

[J_J]

Here is a reasonable priced true 3rd function kit for those that need one.

Less than WR Long or Everything Attachments.

I am not related to or affiliated with these people. Everyone likes good deals.

Construction Attachments True Third Function Hydraulic Valve Kit, Less Hoses

Here is another kit that probably has more GPM capability.

Construction Attachments True Third Function Hydraulic Valve Kit, Includes Hoses

Diverter kit.

http://www.idahoimplement.com/tract.../tractor-third-function-hydraulic-valves.html

 

[davrow]

I don't relate the 3rd function to the loader...I think the term is misused a lot.

And here, JJ, is the crux of the matter. You believe one thing, I believe the opposite. There is no right or wrong, since there is no 'standard definition'. And it therefor cannot be misused, because there is no definition - just differing opinions.

I say it is a 3rd function of the loader. The 3pt has nothing to do with it.

Just my opinion.

 

[J_J]

Believe what you will. I don't have a definite answer yet.

I say this again, that the true 3rd function valve can be used anywhere in the hyd flow path. You will get full flow , as fast as the GPM's can fill that cyl.

If you want to associate it with the loader then great, but if it is not used with a loader will you still call it a 3rd function valve. I also don't believe it is the best valve for the grapple, as the diverter valve will let you feather the grapple if that is important to you.

OK, no one seems to know, we all can use it anyway we want and call it anything we desire.

**m I am glad that is over and done with

 

[k0ua]

Well I don't think we are going to find a definition written down anywhere. BUT In my pea brain, I always though the 3rd function was a description that related to a loader only as the loader has 2 functions, and when you need an auxiliary source of hydraulic power on that loader then you added a "3rd function". Now your loader has 3 functions.

And when people started getting this third function by various methods, people started saying things like "True" 3rd function to refer to the valve in the power beyond flow path so that the "3rd function" could operate at the same time as the other two functions of the loader. Example loader boom lowering, grapple dumping and opening the jaws all at the same time.
Which you could not do with a diverter valve for instance, where you switch the curl/dump valve on the loader between two paths with an electric over hydraulic valve and subplate controlled by an electric switch.

So this is not a "true" 3rd function, although it is a 3rd function. Not that it makes much difference as most of our CUTS may not have enough flow rate from the pump to really operate those 3 functions all at the same time anyway with much speed. Now as for the 3 mechanically operated spools for the loader.. no problem, still a 3rd function setup, and if the 3rd spool is in the power beyond circuit, it is a true 3rd function.

It does not matter that the "true" 3rd function is mechanically operated by a lever or whether it is electric over hydraulic. The point is it is giving you a 3rd function to the loader.
Same for the way I am operating my grapple with a downstream Selective Control Valve that is providing fluid to a remote on the back of the tractor and is plumbed to go to the loader.. it is a "true" 3rd function because it is in the power beyond loop and could be operated while the other two functions are in operation. Again it is mostly wishful thinking with CUT flow rates. I guess you could think of the diverter valve setup as a 2 1/2 function if you like

In my opinion this is rather academic and does not make much difference, and lots of people's opinions will differ on this. You have heard me ramble on now, lets hear what you all think.

 

[J_J]

Are you sure you can operate a valve downstream if the loader valve is using all the fluid for cyl extension?

My thoughts here is that while the loader is extending at full flow, the rod side fluid is going to tank. There is no fluid to go downstream. However if the loader is only using half flow to extend the cyl, fluid will flow out the PB port for downstream operation.

The loader cyl do not use that fluid very long as the pump flow is diverted to the cyl. This only takes seconds, but during that time, the cyl expended fluid goes to tank, and if you go to relief, that fluid also goes to tank. No flow past the loader for a short period. When you let the lever go back to neutral, the flow path is restored.

For you in dis-believers, put a flow meter in the circuit and see for yourself. Is it not logical that there will be zero flow for a short time.

Ask yourself what would happen if you were running a hyd motor from the rear remotes and you used all the pump flow for the loader. Would the hyd motor stop or slow down?

A lot of you will not want to agree with me, but that is OK. I have been wrong before, and I know you don't want to be wrong either. .

 

[kennyd]

Kubota:



JD:

 

[kennyd]

Well I don't think we are going to find a definition written down anywhere. BUT In my pea brain, I always though the 3rd function was a description that related to a loader only as the loader has 2 functions, and when you need an auxiliary source of hydraulic power on that loader then you added a "3rd function". Now your loader has 3 functions.

And when people started getting this third function by various methods, people started saying things like "True" 3rd function to refer to the valve in the power beyond flow path so that the "3rd function" could operate at the same time as the other two functions of the loader. Example loader boom lowering, grapple dumping and opening the jaws all at the same time.
Which you could not do with a diverter valve for instance, where you switch the curl/dump valve on the loader between two paths with an electric over hydraulic valve and subplate controlled by an electric switch.

So this is not a "true" 3rd function, although it is a 3rd function. Not that it makes much difference as most of our CUTS may not have enough flow rate from the pump to really operate those 3 functions all at the same time anyway with much speed. Now as for the 3 mechanically operated spools for the loader.. no problem, still a 3rd function setup, and if the 3rd spool is in the power beyond circuit, it is a true 3rd function.

It does not matter that the "true" 3rd function is mechanically operated by a lever or whether it is electric over hydraulic. The point is it is giving you a 3rd function to the loader.
Same for the way I am operating my grapple with a downstream Selective Control Valve that is providing fluid to a remote on the back of the tractor and is plumbed to go to the loader.. it is a "true" 3rd function because it is in the power beyond loop and could be operated while the other two functions are in operation. Again it is mostly wishful thinking with CUT flow rates. I guess you could think of the diverter valve setup as a 2 1/2 function if you like

In my opinion this is rather academic and does not make much difference, and lots of people's opinions will differ on this. You have heard me ramble on now, lets hear what you all think.

Well said sir :thumbsup:

 

[k0ua]

Let me ask you a question that I am not sure of. When you operate a loader spool, which in my case you have: Prime mover, Pump, Loader control valve, Power Beyond port on the loader valve, to SCV (rear remote), 3pt valve, Tank. Now when you operate lets say the lift valve spool fully, now your loader arms are going up, is there any fluid flow path to the Power Beyond port or is it cut off? That is my question.

 

[k0ua]

I am going to answer my own question, in what I THINK from experience. I believe there is some flow to the PB port even if the loader valve is operated fully open to say raise the lift.. But it will be pretty slow, with the flow rates we see on CUTS. That is what I think.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Kubota:
View attachment 364300


JD:
View attachment 364301

Thanks for the picture Kenny,:thumbsup: I don't know why my link doesn't work. :ashamed:

 

[J_J]

Let me ask you a question that I am not sure of. When you operate a loader spool, which in my case you have: Prime mover, Pump, Loader control valve, Power Beyond port on the loader valve, to SCV (rear remote), 3pt valve, Tank. Now when you operate lets say the lift valve spool fully, now your loader arms are going up, is there any fluid flow path to the Power Beyond port or is it cut off? That is my question.

My thoughts are:

When you fully engage, say the lift spool, you are blocking flow downstream and redirecting allthe flow to the cyl for a few seconds. If your two loader spools are series parrallel, you can use both spools and the flow will divide between the two spools. and nothing downstream for a few seconds.

If you only use part flow to the cyl, then you have some fluid downstream.

Everything coming out of the cyl is going to tank.

 

[J_J]

Thanks for the picture Kenny,:thumbsup: I don't know why my link doesn't work. :ashamed:

All that link tells me is that there is a 3rd function kit available. Do you think it might/could be used for something else.

If the solenoid and subplate kit is not used for the loader, do you still call it a true 3rd function.

I use the 3rd function term just to indicate there is a solenoid valve on a sub plate perhaps making it a true 3rd function kit.

There must be a problem with the terminology if one has to describe a valve as a true 3rd valve. What is an untrue 3rd valve.

This does not have to go further unless you all want to.

Perhaps someone will find the true definition of 3rd function.

I thought all my facts were fairly accurate. I know if they are not, you guys will surely set me straight. Don't beat me up to much.

 

[the old grind]

Not to hijack, guys, just trying to put out an example of what this er' friendly discourse applies to, and .. perhaps related later as to its control attributes .. with a grapple. :salute:

My lift & curl cylinders don't work well at the same time unless I'm dumping a load, so I can't guess whether they're series-parallel. Well, my 6 GPM pump is no great shakes, so I don't expect many things to happen all at once, and k0ua, I think I'm with you about o'all flow.

J_J thanks for the link to II! What appears to be the difference between the types offered is product title and fittings included more than what they can do, but the valve block for the 'true' kit doesn't look like a 6-port.

I wish I could compare similar valves s x s to see which is more compact, since I'll pro'ly need a shoehorn, splitting wedges, and moly grease to squeeze one onto my very compact tractor/FEL. Out of harms way and out of my way could mean on the far loader arm.

Is a the place to ask, what's the guess how much of my mere 6 GPM will be lost to adding re-plumbing a dozen connections with 90s or 45s?

 

[J_J]

You should not lose any GPM, maybe a few psi.

If you have 6 GPM, and try and use the lift and curl spools at the same time, the flow will be split and provide 3 GPM to each spool.

A true 3rd function single valve and subplate will probably have 4 ports. P,T, A,B.

The diverter valve will have 6 ports. Two lines in, Two lines for the grapple, and two lines for the curl cyl.