3rd function valve

[J_J]

This term is used a lot, so where did the term 3rd function come from? I have searched the internet and can not find a definitive answer.

Could it have been derived from, say the third valve in a tractor hyd system?

If that is true, what is the first and second function, and possible a forth and fifth valve.

Consider this, that most all tractors come with a 3pt valve and sometimes is the only valve on the tractor.

So, could the 3pt be the first function valve and perhaps the loader valve be the second function valve, and any valve after that becomes the 3rd function valve.

What is true 3rd function, is it a solenoid valve on a subplate operated by a switch.

Is the diverter/selection valve a 3rd function valve? The diverter valve is not in the normal flow path until the loader valve is activated. Could it be called a secondary valve.

What is electric over hyd , and is that any valve using a solenoid valve for operation?

How does one install valves in a multi valve subplate with a series flow path, does the first valve have priority or will any valve operate at any time.

How about series parrallel subplate, Does any valve have priority? Can I mix cyl valves with motor valves?

If I have three solenoid motor spools on a series parrallel subplate, how many motors will work at the same time?

These things have been on my mind, but not really.

 

[AaronS]

This term is used a lot, so where did the term 3rd function come from? I have searched the internet and can not find a definitive answer.

Could it have been derived from, say the third valve in a tractor hyd system?

If that is true, what is the first and second function, and possible a forth and fifth valve.

Consider this, that most all tractors come with a 3pt valve and sometimes is the only valve on the tractor.

So, could the 3pt be the first function valve and perhaps the loader valve be the second function valve, and any valve after that becomes the 3rd function valve.

What is true 3rd function, is it a solenoid valve on a subplate operated by a switch.

Is the diverter/selection valve a 3rd function valve? The diverter is not in the normal flow path until the loader valve is activated. Could it be called a secondary valve.

What is electric over hyd , and is that any valve using a solenoid valve for operation?

How does one install valves in a multi valve subplate with a series flow flow path, does the first valve have priority or will any valve operate at any time.

How about series parrallel subplate, Does any valve have priority? Can I mix cyl valves with motor valves?

If I have three solenoid motor spools on a series parrallel subplate, how many motors will work at the same time?

These things have been on my mind, but not really.

I try to follow and all I see is "If 3 rabbits and 2 squirrels were wearing purple shorts on a Tuesday equals green aliens." All Greek to me, which I hate because I'd like to add this to my tractor.

 

[J_J]

Which simply means that you need to educate yourself with more hyd expertise.

Just ask your questions and someone will answer.

 

[ishiboo]

Third function is pretty self-explanatory since it's supposed to refer to only loader valves. The lift and bucket curl are the first two functions, to add a grapple/etc. you add a third function.

Some people now call rear remotes/etc. "third function valves", no point in arguing semantics with people but it confuses things.

 

[J_J]

What is your reference for the 3rd function being associated with the loader valve .

Can a 3rd function valve not be located anywhere in the hyd flow path, and not be associated with the loader valves?

It only confuses things when people don't know what they want or how it works.

 

[ishiboo]

It's just what the term is used for. It does not need to be part of the loader valve, it simply references the loader valve's two functions. It does not matter where in the hydraulic flow path it sits. Its just the third valve for a loader accessory.

 

[/pine]

No basis for this but it's a "3rd" so that implies that there are/were two other "functions"...i.e., boom/bucket for a loader...top link/side link for the 3PH...

But then they should call the SCV for a backhoe thumb a "6th" function ?

 

[the old grind]

Of course all this is 'open center' talk when we're using the diverter in a 'DPDT' role where all components are connected 'in series', where anything plumbed downstream gets only what's left over when something upstream is (parially) activated, and I guess calling front remote a third function 'of the loader valve'. Wouldn't this also be a way to add another rear remote as a 3rd function of its control valve? (how do they plumb multiples, anyway??)

I mentioned foot switches (vs on loader stick, etc) on another thread and laughed at myself for the geeky excess of it, but still went looking for possibilities. :confused2: I found 6" x 8" & 12" x 12" mats, wallet-sized treadle-pedals, and a fist sized bulb-looking (weather seal) in supposedly waterproof versions with 2 meter cables and apparently suitable SPST contacts for a 12v diverter valve.

If there's any finesse to installing this sort of setup, it looks like it'd be mounting/routing things to not make normal service access much more difficult without removing the FEL. (can get cozy <30hp or so?) The right pieces need to separate as easily and as neatly when you do too, IMO. I'm glad I looked my loader valve over well ahead of takin' 'er in and got an preview of what will fit where and can be plumbed when I talk to my installer. (He has all the parts/pieces and a heated shop. I have neither)

btw: It looks like my '3FV' will have to go on the loader tower vs the valve tower that stays with the tractor. That way, I can use the lift QDs 'as is' and the the curl take-offs (their lines to it without QD) to the diverter and have only two more QDs to mess with altogether (@ SSQA). Wonder how soon I'd forget to unplug the wire and pull something apart. :duh: I'm also likely to have a snake pit of rubber making the engine oil stick even tougher to get at. :hissyfit:

Don't mean to hijack, J_J, this thread isn't about me, but I wanted to share because I'm ridin' this theme in the coming days or weeks. (OK, maybe weeks, then ) How about I just bump the button once in a while with nothing connected to the front remotes and take a selfie eek right when I deadhead the system? ....

 

[juddspaintballs]

First function: raise and lower front end loader
Second function: curl attachment on the end of the FEL
Third function: anything additional on the FEL like the clamping action of a grapple

It is possible to use rear hydraulics to run a third function on the FEL, although the rear hydraulics aren't really referred to as the third function (nor are the first two functions of a FEL referred to as first and second function). Third function is simply the terminology used when adding a third type of hydraulic movement on the FEL.

 

[Leejohn]

Anytime there is more then one spool the 1st one that gets pressure is the 1st, next inline is the 2nd, then the 3rd is the 3rd function. Each spool is a function and it doesn't matter what it feeds. It's the flow path of the pressure from the pump. The big ? when asking about 3rd function is to ask what it is going be used for.

 

[skyhook]

Good thread, JJ.
I would assume that you could have two areas on your tractor that have 3rd function valves.
One 3rd function for the loader, and one 3rd function for the pto.
I guess that would be six function valves.

 

[J_J]

Woods calls this a 3rd function valve, but look at the picture.

Excerpt:

This optional 3rd function valve kit is available for LF
loader models. This valve can supply oil for the operation
of loader mounted attachments such as a grapple,
multi-purpose bucket or bale clamp. The valve is
an electrically controlled diverter valve that directs oil
from the bucket circuit to an auxiliary function.

http://www.woodsequipment.com/uploadedfiles/products/manuals/man0659.pdf

Some people use the term True 3rd Function. Just what is the description for a True 3rd function valve?

Would you say that it has to have a solenoid valve and a subplate?

If a single solenoid and subplate is a 3rd function valve, what do you call three solenoid valves on a subplate. Would you call it a ganged 3rd function.

Can a manual valve be a 3rd function. If I install a manual valve after the loader, is it a 3rd function valve?

Some people are going to say, why everybody knows what it is, but guess what, they don't.

When I use the term, I am thinking a single solenoid valve on a subplate with an IN port, an OUT port and two work ports, and maybe a relief port, and all ports are high pressure about 3000 to 5000 psi rating, so there is no need to mentioned a PB port.

The 3rd function valve can be installed anywhere in the open center hyd system before the 3pt valve including the loader valve if the subplate has a relief valve installed. You also have to consider that when the solenoid is activated, all flow goes to the subplates work ports and what comes out of the T port is the expended cyl fluid..

If you have a hyd motor controlled by a 3rd f unction valve you are giving the hyd motor full pump flow and the downstream flow is now from the hyd motor.

 

[skyhook]

I see, I don't think this should be considered a third function valve, per say.
Maybe a re-directional, second valve.

 

[the old grind]

"3rd function" 'label' applies to the end usage of loader circuit etc vs the components to make it happen?? (So, what's in a name if it'll git 'er done?)

"I added a switch to that dark room. btw: it controls a fan/light." ... (3rd, 4th, 5th 'function' of its circuit?)

Oh, must be nice to have loader arms bigger around that the OEM hydro line bundle ... or room to hang a valve on either arm and out of harms way. :confused3: ...

 

[J_J]

Apparently you have no idea of where the term came from. You are just guessing.

Whats in a name you say. Well most times the name tells one what it is and might include how it works.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I have always thought of a 3rd function as just that, a 3rd hydraulic function in regards to a front end loader.

Any type of valve can be considered a 3rd function valve.

A rear remote used to operate a grapple would be considered a 3rd function valve in my mind, at the time that it is plumbed to operate that 3rd function on the loader.

A true 3rd function valve is a valve, manual or electric that allows 3 functions on the FEL to be operated at the exact same time.

This is my understanding of 3rd function valves. Is there a true definition listed out some place, I don't think so. :confused3:

 

[J_J]

I believe that someone coined that term when they wanted to add a third valve, not spool. However I don't know for sure.

That was the purpose of the post to find out what the 3rd function is and where the term came from.

The first valve on just about any tractor is the 3pt valve. Loaders are an add on with one valve and two spools.

I don't relate the 3rd function to the loader, however it is sometimes associated with a loader.

I think the term is misused a lot.

I also don't think the manufacturers even talk about their valve as being a 3rd function.

The people that put together a solenoid kit call them a true 3rd function and they are used in different situations like what you are doing.

I consider a diverter valve an aux or secondary valve.

If my tractor only had the 3pt for hyd, and I wanted to add a valve for an attachment with a hyd motor, would I be adding a 3rd function valve, or just a solenoid valve with subplate?

Can you have say, three separate 3rd function valves? Could there be a forth and fifth function. Why not.

Sure it is terminology, but it would be nice to know the starting point.

Here is a loader valve with a third spool. Would you call that a 3rd function, or just another spool for, say a grapple. ?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...PM-JOYSTICK-LOADER-VALVE-W-GRAPPLE-9-8217.axd

If I go to Surplus and search for a 3rd function valve, , it comes up with no results, however there are valves and subplates that one could put together and say, make a true 3rd function valve.

If you search the net for 3rd function valve,you might come up with some manufacturers such as WR Long and a few others that have put together a kit, and a lot of listings for TBN questions about 3rd function valves.

 

[J_J]

This is in relation to the 3rd function valve.

Who can figure the fluid being pushed out of the rod side of a 4 in bore cyl with a 2 in rod, with a pump flow of 10 GPM flowing into the base end, and then the flow coming out of the base end with the same 10 GPM flowing into the rod end.

 

[the old grind]

Perhaps the roots of this abused term are scattered and distinct such that '3rd Function' has become a 'catch all' term born of jargon vs specific description of one component, however it's adapted.

What's a 'Bluetooth?' Something that hangs on your ear? Lots of terms are misused. (Is one's 'Old Lady' his mother, his wife, or his mistress?)

That two-stick, three spool valve seem to be plumbed to by PB vs by a remotely placed diverter. I don't know yet what that does, or not, for my own definition of third function, but I'll work on it. I'm sure more discussion will help me with that ...

Not trying to :stirthepot: here, just trying to catch on ... ? (well, that & the Alzheimer's symptoms ...)

 

[ishiboo]

Are you just ranting and raving about semantics now, JJ, or does this thread have pending value we are not party to yet?

The third function is the accessory function for a loader. Period. That is why the term was coined. It's blatantly obvious as that is how everyone who sells one markets it - it relates to loader attachments and there are already two functions for every loader it's marketed for. Now if someone wants to use it to refer to the 3rd of 15 remotes they have on the back of their tractor, the last being the 15th function valve, that's fine... it's just not the purpose or intent of the name.

When you say 3rd function valve to me, it means a valve to add a hydraulic accessory to a loader. Period.

To you, it might be called a JJ valve. Or if you think it makes more sense to count the 3 point in marketing a loader accessory valve, then I guess you could call it the 4th function valve. But on a hydro tractor, isn't the hydrostatic drive itself a valve? So maybe it's a 5th function valve. Unless you have power steering. Then it's a 6th function valve.

Need another in back to match the 2 already you have? Add a rear remote. Or a mid remote for those not in back. Or a rear SCV. Or a front remote for your snowblower. Or whatever.

From this point forward, I'm referring to it as a doohickey.