425 vs Kubota 7510 or 7520?

KentT · Aug 21, 2005

( 60" finish mower TSC $1,095.76 PT $1400.00 + shipping

5' box blade TSC $393.93 PT $480.00 + shipping (only 4' BB from PT)

Boom pole TSC $86.82 PT $300.00 + shipping

5' tiller TSC $1,154.94 PT $1150.00 + shipping (only 4' tiller from PT)

CUT owners generally don't have to pay shipping. PT owners do, unless they live close enough to the factory. Most don't.

Power Trac may "reuse" the lift arms, but CUTs always "reuse" the 3ph. Comparison wise, it's a wash.

The four thousand dollar bucket made me laugh. I guess you are talking about the price of a complete front end loader. For four grand, it would be a lot bigger than a PT-425's loader. It has been pointed out many times, the only fair way to compare the base price of a PT with something else is compare both machines with loaders attached. Since it is common for CUT dealers to offer tractor/loader package prices, all that is needed is to add the price of a bucket to the PT's base, then compare.

But you can't then claim that a bucket costs $4000 for a CUT.
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So, except for the boom pole, which of those cost twice as much for the PT? Somehow, I can't see the $200 price difference on a boom pole being a prime decision point....

As to your size point, what other 22 to 25 HP CUTs have an 800 lb loader? Most in that size, like the BX23, have a 500 lb loader....

And, if you're trying to be fair, you'd have to add to the price of the CUT the additional hydraulic circuit and control (Aux PTO) that's standard on the 422s and larger, in addition to the cost of a Quick Attach...

Bob_Skurka · Aug 21, 2005

Well let me give a slightly different view . . .
PT front mower = $1400, a NH or Kubota MMM = $2000+
PT 48" box blade = $480+s/h, a quality BB like Midwest = $450+s/h
PT 48" tiller = 1150+s/h, LandPride 1550 50" tiller =$1500
I totally agree that a bucket is not $4000, in fact on a tractor the size of the B7510 or the B7610, the entire front loader with bucket and valving is going to be about $3000.

I guess my point is that I believe PT makes quality implements and they should be compared with quality brands rather than the discount brands.

Now onto the 425 versus the B7510 or B7610 comparision. I have had a couple 422's on my property which is the little brother of the 425. I tested almost purchased a 7610. I think both machines are quality machines. However my general observation of small tractors in general is that they are not the optimum design for most of the tasks we want to use them for. The Power Trac equipment is designed from the task standpoint.

As far as front loader work is considered, the PT will out work any traditional compact tractor. While I never bought two truck loads of dirt, set them side by side and then ran a competiton, my observation is that the PT would move 1 load in the same time a traditional tractor would move a 1/2 load.

From the mowing standpoint, the PT will probably reduce mowing time by 20% over a small cut on a typical lawn. However if there are a lot of plantings to mow around, then the PT could probably reduce mowing time by 30-to-40%. I have a Ventrac which is roughly similar to a PT422 for mowing, it dramatically reduced our mowing time and it gives us a better cut too.

When using a Post Hole Digger there is no comparision. I never really believed it until I saw it. But holes can be dug in 25% of the time it takes to set up the PHD to dig with a tractor.

The issue with the PT is that they are different and if you have not already invested in 3pt implements then it makes sense to consider them. I probably would dump my conventional tractors for a PT if I had known about them before I bought them! But I've got too much invested in implements to move to PT. They are amazing tractors.

KentT · Aug 21, 2005

Bob, having owned a little Kubota with loader and now a PT425, I'd agree with your assessment that a PT will move the same amount of dirt in 1/2 the time -- and if the CUT is a gear-drive (especially one without a shuttle/power reverser), the PT will win by an even greater margin...

Carpenter · Aug 22, 2005

You have to also remember that the quick attach plate is included in the price of the PT implements. The quick attach feature is one of the best parts of owning a PT. So you might ask yourself:

1. Do you like to spend more time hooking up an implement than the actual job you're using it for?

2. Do you like having someone in a funny looking little green tractor run circles around you while doing loader work.

3. Do you want to buy a tractor to save your back only to find that you injure it while trying to wrestle attachments into place?

4. Do you like looking over your shoulder while doing most jobs?

5. Do you like supporting foriegn countries more than your own?

If your answers to the previous questions were no - buy a PT.

Bob_Skurka · Aug 22, 2005

Just a little more information that I'd like to add to my prior post.

If you need lift height when you dump, such as to scoop material and dump it over the side of pick up truck, then the PT 425 will not have the full lift height as a B7610.

If your yard has mounds and rolls in it, then the PT 425 will be stable on those while the tractor will be very tippy (I have a fenced area that is 60' x 140' that is landscaped in a Japanese inspried theme and it has rolls and mounds and it scares the bejeezus out of me when I need to take my NH TC24 into that area!)

If you prefer diesel to gas, then the Kubota is the natural choice, the PT 425 uses a gas engine. Although many would argue that having one common fuel for all your equipment is an advantage.

If you have neighbors with similar size tractors and hope to share implements with them, you would be out of luck with the PT as they are proprietary.

SnowRidge · Aug 22, 2005

(So, except for the boom pole, which of those cost twice as much for the PT? Somehow, I can't see the $200 price difference on a boom pole being a prime decision point....) 

OK, let's see. A 48" PT brush mower cost me $900 plus travel expenses, but a locally built 72" 3ph model cost me only $500 plus a $25 delivery fee.

Post hole digger PT $1000 TSC $385

six inch auger PT $200 TSC $109

nine inch auger PT $220 TSC $120

twelve inch auger PT $260 TSC $135

My own PHD cost only $250 with auger since I was able to buy a like new used unit from a friend. Used 3ph equipment is widely available. Used PT implements are virtually nonexistent.

BTW, I am comparing apples to oranges a bit. The PT prices are for PT-425 implements. The TSC implements will fit a wide range of 3ph equipment, including machines with up to 40 PTO HP. If I were quoting from a PT price sheet for a bigger PT model, most of the PT implement prices would be much higher.

I think some people are missing the whole point of my origninal post. A lot of it was tongue in cheek, but question four is valid -- with editorial license.

Of course, not all implements are twice as expensive. Some are more than that; some are less than that. One or two may actually be cheaper, but in general, PT implements cost quite a bit more than implements for an equivalent size CUT, plus shipping expenses must be figured in for almost all PT purchases, while CUT owners can pick up implements locally, in most cases.

All of this only makes economic sense. Power Trac has a captive market. Once you commit to buying a Power Trac, except for home grown stuff, the only source for implements is Power Trac itself, while CUT 3ph implements are available from a wide variety of sources. If Power Trac implements didn't cost more, you would see a whole raft of MBAs headed to Tazewell to figure out where they went wrong.

RegL · Aug 22, 2005

"
OK, let's see. A 48" PT brush mower cost me $900 plus travel expenses, but a locally built 72" 3ph model cost me only $500 plus a $25 delivery fee.

Post hole digger PT $1000 TSC $385

six inch auger PT $200 TSC $109

nine inch auger PT $220 TSC $120

twelve inch auger PT $260 TSC $135
"

 But if your going to buy throw away implements from TSC, than why not save lots more money and buy a Chinese cut. ( Just thought I would throw a little gas on the fire. LOL ) Actually, I'm selling my 32hp Chinese CUT because it just doesn't get used since I got the pt1430 2 years ago. Most of my 3pt implements are good quality name brand. My reasoning was that they do the work and take the beating so it seemed reasonable to me to spend the money on the implements rather than one of the high priced tractors.

Schultz · Aug 22, 2005

I think the PT is a pretty good deal and there have been several times I still wish I had the PT instead of the Kubota.

Even my used BX is going to be more expensive than the 425 when I fit it with a FEL. I paid $8k for mine that had 120hrs, 60"mmm and 60" back blade. A new FEL cost around $3000, a snow blower cost $3200 if you don't have the FEL and $2600 if you do have the FEL. So the implements that I want are more expensive than the PT implements.

Some direct comparisons to keep in mind:
1. The Kubota mower on my BX is disappointing, it's slow blade tip speed and low lift blades don't suck up the grass that the front tires run over, and it doesn't mulch grass well. The bx 60" deck has a blade tip speed of 14,271 ft/min. All other CUT mm mowers of this class had higher blade speeds. The pt deck was calculated to be about 17,500 ft/min.

2. I love the Japanese diesels, these engines are great. I'm sure the German diesel is nice too, but I haven't used one. My 22hp bx diesel uses about a third of the fuel compared the 18hp gas Onan that was on my Ingersol. I've heard the 25hp gas engines are thirsty engines.

3. I've grown up around tractors so I'm use to 3 pt attachments but after seeing Moss Road's video of hooking up a bucket in 30 seconds, seeing how a mower can be on or off in less than a minute, I hate 3 pt hitch stuff, there always a PITA to get on/off compared to a PT quick attach. The mower takes about 3-5 minutes to get off the bx and about 5 minutes to get back on, because it's kind of a pain to do your not as likely to take it off.

4. Blade sharpening is a pain on MM mowers. You lie on the ground or cement and reach under to get the blades off and then back on. The PT, you just lift the mower in the air and you have easy access.

5. FEL on a CUT probably won't compare to a PT. The weight distribution on a PT is better than a CUT and will allow it to pick up more for the same weight tractor. All the bx FEL's are only rated for 600-650 lbs, where as a 425 is rated for 800lbs. The PT has a choice of bucket sizes, I haven't seen any choices for the Kubota.

I'm sure there's more but that's my first pass at it.
Tim

Piedmont3 · Aug 22, 2005

FunPilot,
I was in your shoes this time last year. I looked at Kubota, John Deere, Iseki, Cub Cadet, Long, Mahindra, Ventrac, and Power Trac.
After looking at initial cost for the same packages (25-30 HP Tractor) and what I would be able to do with them after I got them, I decided to go with the PT-425, and as many implements as I could talk my wife into. I have had a few problems with my PT. But I have accomplished a great deal more than I expected to accomplish in the first 7 months of ownership. I am pleased with my decision, enough to recommend them to you.
Jeff

MossRoad · Aug 22, 2005

The issue with the PT is that they are different 

You, Bird and Snowridge hit it right on the head. It is a different machine and does certain tasks better than a CUT and certain tasks worse than a CUT. The job of the buyer is to determine if it will do what they need it to do better than something else for the budget they have. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif