4310/4410 whats the difference
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tractorhal
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right or wrong would look at weight and frame size based on what you plan on doing and hp available. 3hp doesn't seem like much but on a 30hp engine thats 10%. Idon't know all that goes into figuring the different ratings for draw hp, pto hp, but hpmakes power. this said I would think you would want the most hp avalible for the size tractoryou were buying.i.e.4410or 4710.
JATO_RaT
Veteran Member
Thanks for the link Bob. I saw while browsing the JD brochure that in fact it does post the torque for the 4410 as higher then the 4510 or 4610 at rated speed which is the maximum engine RPM or 2600 RPM. After thumbing through the catalogs from JD, I thought the products they offer are great. For my needs, I think I will be looking at the 4610 or 4710. I would choose the 4410 if it came with the 460 loader which has a considerable lifting advantage over the 430, over 1000lbs at the pins. Those would roughly compare to the Kubotas L3830 and the 4330. I was wondering about two things JD offers
1. Has is the eHydro
2. How does Load Match work? I see what it does, but how does it do it?
Rat...
1. Has is the eHydro
2. How does Load Match work? I see what it does, but how does it do it?
Rat...
rancar
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Rat...
<font color="blue">"...I saw while browsing the JD brochure that in fact it does post the torque for the 4410 as higher then the 4510 or 4610 at rated speed which is the maximum engine RPM or 2600 RPM...."</font>
Yep....this is the same information supplied me by my dealer. Spec sheets do say the 4410 has higher torque than the 4510 or 4610. It's hard to believe JD's engineers would get this wrong. If it's a misprint caused by JD's marketing division, why haven't they picked up on it and corrected the misprint as I've seen this info on a couple different pieces of JD literature?
<font color="blue">"...For my needs, I think I will be looking at the 4610 or 4710..."</font>
You'll like either one....but as discussed in the aforementioned posts the 4710 does have the highest torque ratings in the 4x10 series if power is what you're looking for. If interested, take a look at my 4710 in the thread entitled New 4710 Came Home Yesterday in JD's Owner/Operating Forum. You'll have to scroll back to last July or thereabouts. I could not be more pleased with this unit's operational performance. It's quite a dynamo that's packed into a compact tractor frame.
<font color="blue">"...How is the eHydro..."</font>
eHydro runs great. I had some hesitancy when I bought the 4710 when I heard they changed the 4700's HST to the eHydro. HST would provide a more abrupt stop when foot is released from forward pedal....I heard from others though eHydro provided more of a rolling stop with a greater tendency for the operator wanting to brake. I have not experienced this. On level terrain, eHydro will come to a rolling stop without braking within a reasonable distance.
<font color="blue">"...How does Load Match work? I see what it does, but how does it do it?"</font>
To be frank....I really don't know. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I've never had a reason to use it. I've picked up some fairly heavy loads of fieldstone with proper ballasting on the 3PH and I've never experienced difficulty with lifting the load or transporting it to the degree I needed to use Load Match.
....Bob
<font color="blue">"...I saw while browsing the JD brochure that in fact it does post the torque for the 4410 as higher then the 4510 or 4610 at rated speed which is the maximum engine RPM or 2600 RPM...."</font>
Yep....this is the same information supplied me by my dealer. Spec sheets do say the 4410 has higher torque than the 4510 or 4610. It's hard to believe JD's engineers would get this wrong. If it's a misprint caused by JD's marketing division, why haven't they picked up on it and corrected the misprint as I've seen this info on a couple different pieces of JD literature?
<font color="blue">"...For my needs, I think I will be looking at the 4610 or 4710..."</font>
You'll like either one....but as discussed in the aforementioned posts the 4710 does have the highest torque ratings in the 4x10 series if power is what you're looking for. If interested, take a look at my 4710 in the thread entitled New 4710 Came Home Yesterday in JD's Owner/Operating Forum. You'll have to scroll back to last July or thereabouts. I could not be more pleased with this unit's operational performance. It's quite a dynamo that's packed into a compact tractor frame.
<font color="blue">"...How is the eHydro..."</font>
eHydro runs great. I had some hesitancy when I bought the 4710 when I heard they changed the 4700's HST to the eHydro. HST would provide a more abrupt stop when foot is released from forward pedal....I heard from others though eHydro provided more of a rolling stop with a greater tendency for the operator wanting to brake. I have not experienced this. On level terrain, eHydro will come to a rolling stop without braking within a reasonable distance.
<font color="blue">"...How does Load Match work? I see what it does, but how does it do it?"</font>
To be frank....I really don't know. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I've never had a reason to use it. I've picked up some fairly heavy loads of fieldstone with proper ballasting on the 3PH and I've never experienced difficulty with lifting the load or transporting it to the degree I needed to use Load Match.
....Bob
timb
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<font color="blue"> "If it's a misprint caused by JD's marketing division, why haven't they picked up on it and corrected the misprint as I've seen this info on a couple different pieces of JD literature?"</font>
(in your best Elmer Fudd voice...)
...Be very very careful when reading JD printed material...
In my "research" while trying to pick a tractor, I've found dozens of typos, misprints and inconsistent information in printed JD information - from promotional brochures right through into the owner's manuals.
(I actually ordered JD and NH owner's manuals to gain further insight into the "real-world" differences. Maybe a bit over the top, but it actually was very helpful.)
I was always /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif on the oft-quoted torque rankings (of the 4410) - the info posted by John Miller makes more sense. And if you do the math converting hp and rpm to torque - something just isn't right in the "common" 4410 ranking compared to the 4510/4610. Peak torque is another matter and I wish that number was easier to find for all the models.
Tim
(in your best Elmer Fudd voice...)
...Be very very careful when reading JD printed material...
In my "research" while trying to pick a tractor, I've found dozens of typos, misprints and inconsistent information in printed JD information - from promotional brochures right through into the owner's manuals.
(I actually ordered JD and NH owner's manuals to gain further insight into the "real-world" differences. Maybe a bit over the top, but it actually was very helpful.)
I was always /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif on the oft-quoted torque rankings (of the 4410) - the info posted by John Miller makes more sense. And if you do the math converting hp and rpm to torque - something just isn't right in the "common" 4410 ranking compared to the 4510/4610. Peak torque is another matter and I wish that number was easier to find for all the models.
Tim
JATO_RaT
Veteran Member
I think the possibility exists that at rated speed (2600 RPM) it is quite possible that the torque is higher on the 4410 vs the 4510/4610 engines. I would like to see a graph of it, but as Mr Miller pointed out, the peak torque on the 4510/4610 engines exceeds that of the 4410. While looking at the graphs for another tractor brand, it is apparent that they share a commonality, high torque rise with peak torque typically around 1500 RPM. As maximum engine rated speed is approached, that curve drops quickly. My experience with compact tractors is that the little diesels in them do a very good job considering what it is they are required to do. Rat...
rancar
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<font color="blue">"...high torque rise with peak torque typically around 1500 RPM. As maximum engine rated speed is approached, that curve drops quickly..."</font>
Yep....that's exactly what those charts in that publication I posted illustrate.
Yep....that's exactly what those charts in that publication I posted illustrate.
JohnMiller3
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Hi MaRK... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
First off... my Father and Grandfather don't visit TBN... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
...so save the "Mr. Miller" for them... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Now Mr. Ratermann, ...on to some more serious business... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I have made different spreadsheets on Yanmars (& Kubota's & Perkins, etc.) that are kinda in a state of disarray right now... but you asked and you shall receive... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
(next post)...
John
First off... my Father and Grandfather don't visit TBN... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
...so save the "Mr. Miller" for them... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Now Mr. Ratermann, ...on to some more serious business... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I have made different spreadsheets on Yanmars (& Kubota's & Perkins, etc.) that are kinda in a state of disarray right now... but you asked and you shall receive... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
(next post)...
John
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JohnMiller3
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JATO_RaT
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"First off... my Father and Grandfather don't visit TBN...
...so save the "Mr. Miller" for them... "
Sorry John, its a habit when speaking to such knowledgeable and respectful folks.
You have a knack for obtaining information, did you work with the CIA? You never cease to surprise me, Thanks, Rat.
...so save the "Mr. Miller" for them... "
Sorry John, its a habit when speaking to such knowledgeable and respectful folks.
You have a knack for obtaining information, did you work with the CIA? You never cease to surprise me, Thanks, Rat.
timb
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JMIII
Great stuff. Can you post the chart for the 4TNE84? (I think that's the 4510/4610 engine). That should settle this 4410 vs. the 4-cyl engines torque question once and for all. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
If I read the bottom chart correctly - it looks like there is no fuel usage penalty worth mentioning with the bigger 4710 engine - that is if you're drawing 30HP on the PTO for a mower under a given field condition - both engines are going to consume exactly the same amount of fuel per hour? (OK - with maybe a tick more just moving the heavier 4710). But - you have the "reserve" power available in the bigger motor when needed.
Great stuff. Can you post the chart for the 4TNE84? (I think that's the 4510/4610 engine). That should settle this 4410 vs. the 4-cyl engines torque question once and for all. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
If I read the bottom chart correctly - it looks like there is no fuel usage penalty worth mentioning with the bigger 4710 engine - that is if you're drawing 30HP on the PTO for a mower under a given field condition - both engines are going to consume exactly the same amount of fuel per hour? (OK - with maybe a tick more just moving the heavier 4710). But - you have the "reserve" power available in the bigger motor when needed.
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
Are these charts specific to Yanmar OEM engines? Could it be that in the Deere application, other factors such as injector pump specs affect this? I really don't have a clue, just wondering....
Anonymous Poster
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Can I say, I love my 4300 /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
(my wife can verify that) /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
(my wife can verify that) /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
timb
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OK. Someone who's more of an engineer than I (I do software, my brother's the ME) can say if this is wrong - and please do /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif, but I've always read it that torque and hp are directly and mathematically related.
Torque (lb-ft) = (Horsepower * 5252) / RPM of Horsepower rating.
Since the JD engines are all rated at the same RPM (2600) that factor goes away. Therefore the relative torque output is directly related to the relative HP of the different engines - there's no "hidden" torque-creating factor involved. There's a lot of factors (stroke length, piston area, swept volume) that come into play to get to those numbers, but once you're there - hp and torque and rpm are all glued to each other.
The 4410/4510/4610/4710 deliver 35/39/44/48 hp (gross) respectively - and since this is all at the same rpm - the torque at that rating rpm *must* increase in that order. The 4410 can not be in 2nd place (unless the hp ratings are wrong.) Now what happens at other rpms can definitely vary from that order - but from JMIII's charts it looks like the engine series are very linear in their growth.
I'll chalk the rest up to misprints in JD's literature. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (and apologies for going so far OT)
Torque (lb-ft) = (Horsepower * 5252) / RPM of Horsepower rating.
Since the JD engines are all rated at the same RPM (2600) that factor goes away. Therefore the relative torque output is directly related to the relative HP of the different engines - there's no "hidden" torque-creating factor involved. There's a lot of factors (stroke length, piston area, swept volume) that come into play to get to those numbers, but once you're there - hp and torque and rpm are all glued to each other.
The 4410/4510/4610/4710 deliver 35/39/44/48 hp (gross) respectively - and since this is all at the same rpm - the torque at that rating rpm *must* increase in that order. The 4410 can not be in 2nd place (unless the hp ratings are wrong.) Now what happens at other rpms can definitely vary from that order - but from JMIII's charts it looks like the engine series are very linear in their growth.
I'll chalk the rest up to misprints in JD's literature. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (and apologies for going so far OT)
JohnMiller3
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JohnMiller3
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JohnMiller3
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Are these charts specific to Yanmar OEM engines?)</font>
Yes...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Could it be that in the Deere application, other factors such as injector pump specs affect this? )</font>
Yes...
The mfr. will usually show their "best face" when it comes to spec's... so I'm assuming these charts as continuous duty to do just that... but like any engine... you can tweak them up/down... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Yes...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Could it be that in the Deere application, other factors such as injector pump specs affect this? )</font>
Yes...
The mfr. will usually show their "best face" when it comes to spec's... so I'm assuming these charts as continuous duty to do just that... but like any engine... you can tweak them up/down... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but like any engine... you can tweak them up/down.)</font>
So it IS possible that Deere has the 4410 set a little "hotter"; seeing it is their largest offering in that frame size. If a buyer wants a particularly "hot" unit in a mid chassis - they might be willing to pay a premium. Actually price is seldom tied to fixed cost of production, but on "price points" or sometimes, even snob appeal.
I, personally, may well be in the range of the 4410. I need all the power I can get, but the mid frame size would be a plus, with a gazillion trees and crazy topography to traverse.
I have checked all over and I think the torque number is right for the 4410, and the 101ci is the right displacement. I sure don't mind being corrected, if that could be verified. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
So it IS possible that Deere has the 4410 set a little "hotter"; seeing it is their largest offering in that frame size. If a buyer wants a particularly "hot" unit in a mid chassis - they might be willing to pay a premium. Actually price is seldom tied to fixed cost of production, but on "price points" or sometimes, even snob appeal.
I, personally, may well be in the range of the 4410. I need all the power I can get, but the mid frame size would be a plus, with a gazillion trees and crazy topography to traverse.
I have checked all over and I think the torque number is right for the 4410, and the 101ci is the right displacement. I sure don't mind being corrected, if that could be verified. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
rationalizer
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Timb,
You are correct - at a given rpm torque and HP are directly related. My earlier post may have been misleading - I was trying to "rationalize" JD's numbers - which appear to be wrong. I hadn't looked at the rated rpm - which is critical. It appears that the JD 4X10 line has a nice linear progression for hp and torque - you pay more you get more.
Bill
You are correct - at a given rpm torque and HP are directly related. My earlier post may have been misleading - I was trying to "rationalize" JD's numbers - which appear to be wrong. I hadn't looked at the rated rpm - which is critical. It appears that the JD 4X10 line has a nice linear progression for hp and torque - you pay more you get more.
Bill
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
This subject has haunted me. From a very little digging I got the following from the Deere Owners Manual for mid-chassis CUT's Thia restates JMIII's info,, from Deere's angle.
By no means should it be considered inerrant /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
<font color="green"> Manufacturer Yanmar
Model Number (4210) 3TNE82A
Model Number (4310) 3TNE84
Model Number (4410) 3TNE88
Type Diesel
Cylinders 3
Gross Horsepower (4210) 20.2 kW (27.0 hp)
Gross Horsepower (4310) 23.2 kW (31.2 hp)
Gross Horsepower (4410) 25.8 kW (34.6 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4210 SyncShift) 17.5 kW (23.5 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4210 eHydro) 16.4 kW (22.0 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4310 SyncShift and ePowrReverser) 20.1 kW (27.0 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4310 eHydro) 19.0 kW (25.5 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4410 ePowrReverser) 22.4 kW (30.0 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4410 eHydro) 21.3 kW (28.5 hp)
Rated Engine Speed 2600 rpm
Operating Range 1000-2810 rpm
Engine Torque @ Rated Speed (4210) 71.0 N·m (52.4 lb-ft)
Engine Torque @ Rated Speed (4310) 78.5 N·m (57.9 lb-ft)
Engine Torque @ Rated Speed (4410) 87.9 N·m (64.8 lb-ft)
Compression Ratio 18.5:1
</font>
By no means should it be considered inerrant /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
<font color="green"> Manufacturer Yanmar
Model Number (4210) 3TNE82A
Model Number (4310) 3TNE84
Model Number (4410) 3TNE88
Type Diesel
Cylinders 3
Gross Horsepower (4210) 20.2 kW (27.0 hp)
Gross Horsepower (4310) 23.2 kW (31.2 hp)
Gross Horsepower (4410) 25.8 kW (34.6 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4210 SyncShift) 17.5 kW (23.5 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4210 eHydro) 16.4 kW (22.0 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4310 SyncShift and ePowrReverser) 20.1 kW (27.0 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4310 eHydro) 19.0 kW (25.5 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4410 ePowrReverser) 22.4 kW (30.0 hp)
Manufacturer's Estimated PTO Horsepower (4410 eHydro) 21.3 kW (28.5 hp)
Rated Engine Speed 2600 rpm
Operating Range 1000-2810 rpm
Engine Torque @ Rated Speed (4210) 71.0 N·m (52.4 lb-ft)
Engine Torque @ Rated Speed (4310) 78.5 N·m (57.9 lb-ft)
Engine Torque @ Rated Speed (4410) 87.9 N·m (64.8 lb-ft)
Compression Ratio 18.5:1
</font>
