450' water line

[kenmac]

It's been my experence when you have trees anywhere . The roots of those trees cause problems . We have seen roots grow around the poly pipe & pvc ( it usually breaks the pvc) & squeeze the pipe off so that no water will flow through the pipe

 

[wushaw]

When I put water on my place in Feb 2002 I used the 20' sections of 1 1/2" PVC glued ends, I put in 350' and have had one break (dec 05) and it was my fault, I had too much pressure on a 90deg bend...it was my first time to install water pipe, before the break I always wondered how long that would last...almost 3yrs... Having a BH at your disposal and spare parts is very handy for fixing these things quickly.

 

[mjncad]

... Also consider whether you have the means to distribute the gravel. ...

From personal experience, pea gravel distributes quite easily with a hand held landscape rake. Even my less than athletic body was able to do it. As far as putting the gravel in the trench, a light touch with the loader bucket will allow you to drizzle the gravel in over the pipe.

As for pipe type, my preference is PVC. Of course you could really go whole hog and use Type "K" copper coils; but then you are talking real money!

 

[EddieWalker]

I've never heard of using pea gravel, so maybe it's a technique used up north??? My first experiece with water lines was putting them in for the city of Santa Cruz in California. They are pretty close to a major earthquake fault and have more regs and codes then just about anybody for building.

All the pipes were slip jointed and set in a bed of sand. One foot of sand all around the pipe. No rock, no dirt, just clean sand. This was inspected by the city and something that they took very seriously.

Here in my area of Texas, we don't have much rock. If it's encountered when digging a trench, you just don't use it when you fill your trenches. Regular clean dirt (red clay) is used to fill the trenches.

The reason the waterline faile the first two times is that it wasn't blocked. When you install slip joint pipe, you have to block the end of the pipe. For my waterline, I used a dozen 80 pound sacks of readimix with rebar through the sacks. If you don't have something at the end of the pipe, it will pull apart over time. This sounds just like what happened for the first two leaks.

Something else to consider is to put a preasure regulator on your water lines. Most city water lines will have surge. There's allot of reasons for this, but the preasure is never constant. It will spike from time to time, and depending on where you life and your utility, the spikes can easily go into the low 100's of pounds. Just because the pipe is rated for 200 or 400 pounds, doesn't mean it can last over time with the flexing of high and low preasure.

Black pipe is very prone to fail and this is one of the reasons.

Eddie

 

[TedLaRue]

Originally posted by LoneCowboy
... PVC freezes and shatters, and PE won't. ...

I agree that PE won't shatter, but I know that it can split if the water in it freezes. I think it's probably more tolerant to a little freezing than PVC, but I've repaired an above ground PE line (a coil used as a crude solar water heater) several times because it split when residual water in it froze. I wised up and now I blow it out with an air compressor before winter.

Originally posted by LoneCowboy
... PVC has wayyyyyy better flow characteristics and will not get eaten by tree roots, where poly will (it gets squeezed, impossible to find until it finally breaks, can take years) ...

I'm not sure I agree with this argument. I don't see how PVC could have better flow characteristics when it has joints every 20 feet. In frank29's 450' run, the PE would have only one of those stainless steel insert type couplers, which causes almost no restriction or turbulence at all. But the PVC would have 22 joints in it. Granted, those joints are pretty smooth too, if the installer followed your advice of having the bell face the source. But that can't be any better than a single joint in the PE. Now if for some reason the PE has a lot of joints in it, and if those joints were made with the barbed couplers with hose clamps, I agree 100% with you that the PVC has better flow characteristics.

Also, don't you think that roots that could squeeze PE could also crush PVC? That 1-1/2" PE has really thick walls. If squeezed by roots, it might give a little, but the PVC would just crack.

Maybe your experience has been with that thin wall 60psi PE stuff which is meant for very low pressure irrigation and such. In that case I'd agree with what you're saying. But the PE rated for municipal water distribution is much heavier and stands up pretty well to PVC.

 

[TedLaRue]

Originally posted by EddieWalker
I've never heard of using pea gravel, so maybe it's a technique used up north???

The pebbles in pea gravel are smooth without sharp edges. Near here we use either sand or pea gravel depending on which is available for the least price.

It's nice stuff to backfill with if you have a loader to distribute it the whole length of your trench (450 feet for the original poster frank29). It's still a lot of tractor shuffling around to dump the stuff 5 feet at a time (if your loader is 5' wide). And you really need to have a helper on the ground watching to tell you when you've dumped the right amount for that 5' length of trench.

 

[TedLaRue]

EddieWalker suggested installing a pressure regulator. I think that's a good idea. Pressure regulators are usually installed inside the house, so that may or may not be an option for the original poster frank29.

You might also want to consider installing a check valve at the end of your line closest to the water source. It doesn't cost much for a 1-1/2" check valve. The reason for installing one is that if the supplier (water company) has a leak below the elevation of your property, the check valve will prevent your lines from being siphoned dry. Of course if your property is near or below the level of the public line feeding you, this wouldn't help.

 

[LoneCowboy]

I

I'm not sure I agree with this argument. I don't see how PVC could have better flow characteristics when it has joints every 20 feet. In frank29's 450' run, the PE would have only one of those stainless steel insert type couplers, which causes almost no restriction or turbulence at all. But the PVC would have 22 joints in it. Granted, those joints are pretty smooth too, if the installer followed your advice of having the bell face the source. But that can't be any better than a single joint in the PE. Now if for some reason the PE has a lot of joints in it, and if those joints were made with the barbed couplers with hose clamps, I agree 100% with you that the PVC has better flow characteristics.
.

Look it up in your plumbers book
quite a bit better
There's a reason you don't use poly for long runs.

Also, don't you think that roots that could squeeze PE could also crush PVC? That 1-1/2" PE has really thick walls. If squeezed by roots, it might give a little, but the PVC would just crack.

You'd think so, but it doesn't happen.
I've never seen it and I've dug up a LOT of pipe.

 

[tnau664]

Some of the leaks have an understandable cause such as trees roots growing next to a joint. Other leaks are mystery leaks worthy of the X-Files. The convuluted path the line took contributed to this. Now that my property is developed, the new line will follow the driveway and hopefully avoid some of my past problems.
Thanks for any help.

Several considerations concerning the line "following" the driveway frank29. Be sure you consider upgrades and drainage, if not you could have problems. The phone company decided the best way to lay my line was up the middle of my drive and then, oops, off the the side in a place or two. Needless to say, I've have to be really careful or decide between grading the road and having a phone line.

Terry

 

[ToadHill]

Any chance you could run a 1" line thru the existing line. It would give you extra protection from roots.