450' water line

[mjncad]

... Something else to consider is to put a preasure regulator on your water lines. Most city water lines will have surge. There's allot of reasons for this, but the preasure is never constant. It will spike from time to time, and depending on where you life and your utility, the spikes can easily go into the low 100's of pounds. Just because the pipe is rated for 200 or 400 pounds, doesn't mean it can last over time with the flexing of high and low preasure. ...

Eddie

Pressure regulators are a good thing; but I've noticed that they can lead to a false sense of security. Where I live we have a potable water system and a non-potable irrigation system. When I installed the non-potable system I decided to add pressure gauges. In spite of having the pressure regulator set at 65-PSI, I was still getting readings of 80 to 100-PSI on occasion. The manufacturer (Zurn-Wilkins) told me via email that this can and does happen with residential sized pressure regulators. I've also had this happen with Watts regulators.

I solved the problem by putting a Watts adjustable pressure relief valve in the system downstream of the pressure regulator. I have it set to open at 75-PSI and the discharge goes into my sanitary sewer system. The amount of water I get from the pressure relief valve discharging into my sanitary sewer system is far less than what the AC discharges in it, or the humidifier does in winter.

 

[schmism]

when i priced the run of water line ~150' to my trailer i wanted to go 1" water line grade poly (blue stuff, not thinwall Homedepot black stuff)

I got a bid for a roll of 150' and the two connectors.... when it was delived it was only a 100' roll. Turns out the bid price was for a 100' roll not the 150' shown on the ticket. I had 2 choices, go with a second 100' roll and a splice fitting, or a 300' roll.

either way the cost quickly escilated to 1.5 times what 20' sed 40 bell end PVC was.

over 150' with 20' bell end sticks, your talking 7-8 joints to glue!?!?! how much longer is it really going to take me! (not long at all)

seeing the cost associated with poly, seeing the cost assocated with the bras fittings ($40 a piece in my case) PVC was the obious answer.

in the future when i upgrade the water service (or add a second line) ill go with PVC again.

 

[JRobyn]

I had about 1400ft of 2" line run last year. I asked my contractor about PE pipe since I figured it would be easier to lay, cheaper, and more durable. He said "wrong" on all counts. He used the exact same pipe that the county uses for water mains; 200 psi-rated PVC (don't know what schedule, but it looks like sch40). It has the rubber o-ring bell ends, 20' lengths. It is flexible enough to bend around the curves in the trench just fine. They bedded it in the fine rock dust that they sawed out for the trench. I had them install 6 tees/branches along the run for fire hydrants. They just left me a threaded plug at the end of the branches so I could install the hydrants later. Since the crew was used to installing mains, they didn't have much experience with tees ending in a "dead end", and failed to adequately "block" the ends of them like Eddie has mentioned. When we pressured the line up, I had two of the branch lines blow out of the bells. After I blocked them all in (section of concrete block bearing on the galvanized elbow and hydrant riser) and installed the hydrants, there have been no more leaks. This is with pressures ranging from a low of about 75 psi at the main tap, to over 125 psi at the end of the line, which is about 100 ft lower in elev. It's nice to have that much pressure available (and the 2" line) for fire, but I have to regulate it down to even run a sprinkler! Impulse-type heads won't rotate right with that much pressure.

- Jay

 

[TedLaRue]

Another advantage to PVC sections is the ability to go under other existing utility lines or an existing sidewalk, etc. The continuous PE pipe would have to be threaded under the obstruction and the pulled through, possibly for up to half it's length.

 

[TedLaRue]

Any chance you could run a 1" line thru the existing line. It would give you extra protection from roots.

This could be feasible if his flow rate is low (say, less than 10 gallons per minute). But if the line is supplying a house, and someone's taking a shower when someone flushes the commode while the washing machine is filling up, there might be a problem. The drop in diameter from 1-1/2" down to 1" will obviously cut the available pressure. The loss of pressure due to friction in the pipe is determined by

• the friction of the pipe
• the diameter of the pipe
• the rate of flow (gallons per minute or GPM)
• the length of the pipe

One popular formula (Hazen-Williams) relating all of those uses a "carrying capacity" number called a C-factor. For a given diameter, the higher the number, the smoother the pipe. Both PE (poly) and PVC have the same C-factor. (the same carrying capacity).

Here are a couple of tables showing the approximate loss of pressure in pounds per square inch (psi) for several diameters of PVC or PE pipe at several flow rates on frank29's 450' length and also on a 100' length.


I read the values in the tables above from the graph in figure F103A of the Standard Plumbing Code. They don't take into account any additional pressure loss from elbows, tees or other fittings.

 

[frank29]

......I also like to put detectable marking tape above the pipe before it gets covered up........

Is this a product designed for this application or is it just a small gauge electric wire? Also, where do you put it: on top the pipe at the bottom of the trench (3' max depth) or nearer the surface? (I have no experience using a metal detector). Thanks.

Also, several guys mentioned pressure regulators. I have one inside my basement where the line enters. Would there be an advantage in also putting one out by the meter and set it a higher setting? To protect the line from unusually high spikes.

 

[JRobyn]

I had to add a separate pressure regulator by the meter at my house in Marietta because the Cobb Co supply pressure was so high (100psi +) that impulse sprinklers that take their supply from the service line upstream of the house regulator wouldn'f function right.

- Jay

 

[mjncad]

Is this a product designed for this application or is it just a small gauge electric wire? Also, where do you put it: on top the pipe at the bottom of the trench (3' max depth) or nearer the surface? (I have no experience using a metal detector). Thanks.

Also, several guys mentioned pressure regulators. I have one inside my basement where the line enters. Would there be an advantage in also putting one out by the meter and set it a higher setting? To protect the line from unusually high spikes.

The detectable marking tape is designed for the application. It comes in 2", 3" and 6" widths. Since it can get pricey, I use the 2" stuff around the house; but the greater the width, the easier it is to detect. The marking tape is a metalized Mylar or other plastic. It also comes with different markings and colors for electrical, gas, water, etc and is usually sold in 1000' rolls. In bright sunlight, I've had it curl into a tube, and then relax itself when the clouds come overhead.

Don't put the tape at the bottom of the trench! Depending on the line depth, I've seen the tape 6" to 12" below grade. This way if a metal detector is not used to find the stuff, you most certainly will with the excavator before you find the pipe/conduit. I've seen some obsessive engineers specify two runs of tape on a deeply buried line, the first 12"+ above the top-of-pipe, and the second below grade as mentioned before.

Try Welcome to Northern Safety - For All Your Safety & Industrial Supplies / Northern Safety Co. and I believe Gemplers GEMPLER'S - Official Site - Your Source for Outdoor Work Supplies carries it. I know McMaster-Carr carries it too. McMaster-Carr There are other places that carry the stuff; just don't expect Home Despot or Doh's to stock it.

As for two pressure regulators, you can put one out by the meter that has a higher adjustable range than the one in your house. If the water line from the meter to the house is Type "K" (heaviest wall) copper tubing, then a second pressure regulator by the meter is unnecessary unless you have extremely absurd high water pressure. If you are using SCH40 PVC, it can't hurt, and if you are using Polyethylene rolls, a second regulator is probably a good idea. Also, if you are tapping into the pipe between meter and the house pressure regulator for irrigation, it would be a good idea. However, before spending money on a regulator by the meter, check and see if one is already out in the pit. Our non-potable irrigation line has one in the pit; but I added one where I brought the line into the house before it goes back out to the yard. I want to be able adjust pressure where it's convenient for me, and that is not in the meter pit.

Zurn-Wilkins and Watts make pressure regulators aimed at residential use. Zurn.com and Watts Regulator Company - Plumbing, Heating and Water Quality Products Manufacturer

However, as I said before, pressure regulators can provide a false sense of security unless you put a pressure relief valve in the system downstream of the regulator. You can put a gauges on both sides of the regulator and get it dialed in the way you want, and the next day check the gauges and find the pressure downstream of the regulator has gone above your setpoint. Again, both Wilkins and Watts have said this can happen in systems without pressure relief valves. So I put a Watts adjustable pressure relief valve in the line downstream of the regulator, and I have it set to open at 10% - 15% above the desired system pressure. I run the discharge (trickle) into the sanitary sewer system; but it can go to a sump pit with a functioning sump pump too.

Hope all this helps.

 

[frank29]

.......Hope all this helps.

It does, thanks.

 

[EddieWalker]

Is this a product designed for this application or is it just a small gauge electric wire? Also, where do you put it: on top the pipe at the bottom of the trench (3' max depth) or nearer the surface? (I have no experience using a metal detector). Thanks.

Frank,

The wire I use is regular 16 guage, stranded wire that you buy in the roll at Home Depot or Lowes. I run the wire along the pipe, the wrap duct tape around the pipe and the wire with it on the top of the pipe.

If the line is for a utility, like the local water district, they will want the ends of the lines to come to the surface. They hook there machine to the actual wire and send current down it to give them greater accuracy in locating the pipe. For most people, just having the wire there and a metal detector is fine.

Eddie