4x4 Question

[N80]

N80, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience.

I knew you would, it just took longer than I thought. ;-)

 

[N80]

I dont dispute what your manual says, I do dispute the wisdom of what it says (or doesnt say). Problem with that? Do you now see and understand that the front end needs to turn a different RPM than the rear when turning or you will get some amount of scrubbing?

I got that all along, although the stick figure, as I mentioned, was open to a number of interpretations. The engineers that build a (good) 4wd system (should) understand those physics and they (should) make the product capable of handling those stresses. Why would I expect anything else from a quality tractor? My manual reflects that thinking.

You are free to dispute the wisdom of my manual. But I'm not sure why you would. It covers all the do's and don'ts of every system on the machine. It gives ranges, parameters, instruction on the best way to do things, but not one word of advice regarding taking it out of 4wd. Why not? Do they know something you don't regarding binding, physics, wear, stress, etc.? Maybe, maybe not. No offense, but I'm going to trust Kubota.

Maybe one day my son will be teaching his son how to drive Dad's old Kubota and there will be a big klang as the front drive shaft falls out and I'll slap myself in the forehead and curse Kubota's silly manual.

 

[N80]

As far as Im aware, Kubota doesnt offer this on their compact tractors. I could be wrong though. Maybe you got the first one.

As I've mentioned, the L4400 would be the last machine to have anything fancy on it. But I'll say it again, Kubota likely understands the stresses inherent on basic front drive lines and knows how to make the system withstand those stresses, just like everyhting else that gets 'engineered'.

 

[N80]

After rereading my posts, I apologize for my smarta$$ comments, Im trying to cut back but its not easy. The real point of the post was to educate, not berate.

No big deal. I don't take any of this personally. I think what I react to most in these sorts of discussions is concrete, blanket statements that might not apply to everyone. That and a certain smugness (not you) that presumes there can only be one side and that all other thoughts are either hardheaded or ignorant.

 

[tydp]

If you use a loader for anything regardless of the application and not use your 4 wheel drive is just foolish. The moment you put wt into the bucket or on forks you pivot over the front axle and take the load off the rears and if your front axle is free wheeling your in trouble.

I better take my loader off my 2wd M5400 immediately and sell it. If not, I am a fool and in great danger!!!!

 

[ovrszd]

I knew you would, it just took longer than I thought. ;-)

I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy........

 

[ovrszd]

No big deal. I don't take any of this personally. I think what I react to most in these sorts of discussions is concrete, blanket statements that might not apply to everyone. That and a certain smugness (not you) that presumes there can only be one side and that all other thoughts are either hardheaded or ignorant.

I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy.......

 

[3RRL]

I like that. But why not have a dashboard light that says "MFWD off"?

My tractor has a 4wd indicator light on it and also one for the parking brake. LOL my problem is I've driven off many times with the parking brake still on. Now I'm thinking of adding a "beeper" for it???

 

[Soundguy]

Yep.. lots of 2wd tractors out there with loaders that must be extreme hazards just setting there.

In all reality.. the other poster's comment stating 'anything regardless of the application' is so all encompasing as to virtually invalidate the comment itself.

I can think of plenty of 'applications' where 2wd , under the correct circumstances would not be mandatory.. or even needed...

Gotta watch out about those broad brush strokes...

Soundguy

I better take my loader off my 2wd M5400 immediately and sell it. If not, I am a fool and in great danger!!!!

Originally Posted by Timber
If you use a loader for anything regardless of the application and not use your 4 wheel drive is just foolish. The moment you put wt into the bucket or on forks you pivot over the front axle and take the load off the rears and if your front axle is free wheeling your in trouble.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Well, the 'picture' offered as proof (of what I'm still not sure) is pretty much a stick figure showing that the outside front travels farther than the inside front. I'm not sure that has ever been a point of dispute.

But the thing is, Ovrszd, you're acting like you are privy to some special rule that applies to all CUT's and yet, when I've explained how my owner's manual reads and how my tractor works, you've made excuses and made up mythical systems that it doesn't have in order to shoe-horn your idea into a shoe that it does not fit.

The front diff on my tractor, most I'm assuming, is open. Only one wheel gets traction so binding is minimal except in tight turns. As I've told you, there is no binding that I can feel, not in tight turns or otherwise. There is no chatter. There is no feedback in the steering wheel. NONE. There is NO change in turning radius. So is there _some_ binding? Certainly. Of course. Is this likely to be a problem over the lifetime of my tractor? Of course not. It was made with 4wd. It was made to use 4wd. It was made to last as long as the rest of the tractor.

I'm not sure where you come off assuming that those who take your advice are wise and that those who do not are somehow dangerously hardheaded.

I've read my owner's manual cover to cover. It includes such wisdom as pointing out that diesel fuel is flammable, and yet it includes NONE of the wisdom that you can't believe that some of us won't accept. And this isn't some former Soviet block Yugo-trac, its a late model Kubota.

So if your advice is so rock solid, why doesn't my manual say anything? Why doesn't it warn that the front driveline is weak and must be handled with care (remember when you implied that the front drive line was a weak link?)? Why doesn't it say to take it out of 4wd when not needed? Why doesn't it say to take it out of 4wd even when on pavement? And no, it doesn't have some special (mythical) anti-binding system. Its about as basic a machine as anyone makes.

All I've said is to follow your owners manual. If that sounds hard headed, tell me why.

Quote: N80, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience.

I have three 4wd tractors; a 7520 Mahindra, an L2550 Kubota, and a BX 1500 Kubota. I just now did a test to compare their turning radii in 2 vs 4wd. I did this in a perfectly level horse arena as I had problems getting readable results on uneven ground due the tendency of the tractors turning circle to spiral down hill. I did it moving slowly. I first established the turning circle in 2wd, going around several times to make good marks. Then, I engaged 4wd while still moving in the circle. In all cases the size of the circle increased. The respective amounts; 1) Mahindra +36", 2) L2550 +20", and 3) BX1500 +18". On both smaller tractors, the shifter gave me sufficient leverage so that I was then able to disengage 4wd while moving in the circle. In each case the circle diameter decreased to original 2wd proportion. The Mahindra has too much traction and not enuf shift leverage to overcome the high force on the engagement gear, so I had to leave that one as a one-way test. I am extremely disappointed to find that my tractors are operating according to established physical principles. I expected as much, but was really hoping for the magical operating characteristic achieved in the L4400.
Larry

 

[N80]

I must admit that I have not measured the turning radius of my L4400 with a tape measure. I've driven it around in a circle with and without 4wd and the tracks in the dirt look the same. In that regard I cannot claim accuracy down to the inch. The 36" difference on the Mahindra is a big difference and would have a practical impact on how the tractor was used in tight quarters. I can assure you that there is no practical difference on my L4400.

I _can_ measure it down to the inch, but don't really see myself doing that anytime soon.

 

[dieselsmoke1]

Here's a simple test that all can do with tractor or truck.

On a concrete slab, steer full to one side and slowly drive in an arch in 2wd. Repeat in 4wd. Observe results. Same thing happens on dirt, it's just more forgiving.

 

[Dargo]

I'll step out on a limb and admit that there is positively no way in (you know where) that I'd ever even consider purchasing a 2wd tractor if I needed to use it for loader work. I've been there, done that, got the T shirt, and it flat out stinks; end of story. Where I live, you'd have a better chance selling ice to an Eskimo than you'd have selling 2wd tractors with loaders on them. If you have one with a loader, I assume you can make the best of what you have, but it is so inferior to using an FEL with 4wd that it's even silly to compare. I've run teeny tiny tractors and I've run end dumps with a 15 yard bucket, and everything in between. They all basically work the same way. You can put an FEL on a 2wd tractor, but you will not be able to do anywhere near what you can do with a 4wd tractor.

It's simple physics. You take the weight off of your drive wheels and you have little to no traction. You can counter weight the heck out of the rear, but then you have a very unbalanced tractor if your bucket is empty. The worst is trying to use an FEL with a 2wd tractor on any incline. Now, that is dangerous. To simply pull, a 2wd tractor will generally do fine unless you are in sloppy conditions or you need to pull really hard. Then it becomes an issue when you are just pushing non-working front wheels through the muck as well as pulling your load. I've gotten more than my share of wheeled as well as track driven tractors stuck.

When you get into the class where you really need to pull hard in commercial applications, like pulling a pan behind a tractor, there are basically no more 2wd tractors in use anymore. They are all 4wd and now several are on tracks. I have pulled a 10 yard pan behind a Case IH STX450, which has tracks on each corner, and pulled the same pan with their older 450 hp Case tractor that has duals on each corner. On firm ground, they seem to pull about the same. On soft soil, the tracked STX pulls quite a bit harder. I also managed get a D11 so buried in the mud that you open the cab door and just walk out on the ground that is even with your door bottom. That's when you're really stuck!

 

[N80]

I'll step out on a limb and admit that there is positively no way in (you know where) that I'd ever even consider purchasing a 2wd tractor if I needed to use it for loader work.

Well I'm just here to argue with everybody! I think this post has gotten so long that people aren't reading the middle part. And believe me, I understand the value of 4wd when using a loader. It is easy to see how limited it is when the front drive line isn't engaged.

BUT, you've made a blanket statement that simply can't cover the wide range of applications a FEL can have. I'll repeat myself again (x4). My B-I-L has two large JD tractors that have FELs and are 2wd. They are both 6 cylinder machines, no idea what HP. But, he almost exclusively moves hay bails and scoops cotton seed, calf feed and rarely a bit of gravel. 4wd would mean nothing to him in these applications but more money spent against his very narrow bottom line (I don't know how anyone makes money selling beef calves).

So sure, 4wd greatly enhances the ability and range of uses for a FEL, but it hardly means there are no legitimate uses to be found on 2wd tractors that fit a given job perfectly.

 

[whodat90]

Well, I'll argue too. He may have made a blanket statement, but the one you quoted isn't it. In that statement, Dargo expressed his personal feelings and used "I' three times. Hardly a blanket there.

 

[N80]

Well, I'll argue too. He may have made a blanket statement, but the one you quoted isn't it. In that statement, Dargo expressed his personal feelings and used "I' three times. Hardly a blanket there.

So you think that when someone comes on the internet and tells you what _they_ would do and what _they_ wouldn't do that they are really just talking about themselves? You don't think there is any chance they might be suggesting that they are somehow correct and that those who are reading what they posted might benefit from their opinion? Come on now. When someone says, "this is what I think" they are telling you what they think is true. Otherwise, why post at all?

 

[Timber]

I better take my loader off my 2wd M5400 immediately and sell it. If not, I am a fool and in great danger!!!!

I haven’t been in this thread in several days; I stand behind my opinion 100%. Give me a break hear, this thread is about 4 wheel drive tractors & my opinion & comment is applied to the subject on the table and does not apply to your 2 wheel drive tractor. How can you take a comment somebody makes and take it out of context and then be sarcastic about it. It is the same thing if you have a 4 wheel drive vehicle and take it out in a snow storm and leave it in 2 wheel drive and go into the ditch, you’re a fool because you chose not to use your 4 wheel drive. The same scenario and you have a 2 wheel drive vehicle and the same thing happens, the difference being you didn't have the option. I know it is a blanket statement but we all know there are exceptions to every rule. Do we really need to make disclaimers to every statement we make?

Originally Posted by Timber
If you use a loader for anything regardless of the application and not use your 4 wheel drive is just foolish. The moment you put wt into the bucket or on forks you pivot over the front axle and take the load off the rears and if your front axle is free wheeling your in trouble.

Yesterday 01:06 PM

 

[whodat90]

So you think that when someone comes on the internet and tells you what _they_ would do and what _they_ wouldn't do that they are really just talking about themselves? You don't think there is any chance they might be suggesting that they are somehow correct and that those who are reading what they posted might benefit from their opinion? Come on now. When someone says, "this is what I think" they are telling you what they think is true. Otherwise, why post at all?

Exactly. That's what they think is true. Saying 'this is what I think, and here's why' is entirely different than saying 'you're wrong'. Stating opinions, particularly when qualified with 'I think' opens discussion. Blanket statements like 'everybody else is wrong if they don't think the same way as me' closes discussion. If you're looking for something to be offended about, you'll always find it. If you just read and accept what was actually said you will usually get the message intended. Remember, communincation involves three things: What was said, what was meant, and what was heard. Most of the problems we have are based on those three being different. Personally I prefer to take things literally rather than guess at hidden meanings.

 

[Soundguy]

To be fair, the original poster, in post #1 did ask about operating his tractor w/ loader in 2wd mode...

Soundguy

PS.. to inject a bit of 'guessing' here, in reference to this quote:

Originally Posted by tydp
I better take my loader off my 2wd M5400 immediately and sell it. If not, I am a fool and in great danger!!!!

I believe he was merely trying to state that a tractor that is 2wd, and equipped with a loader, -can- handle certain tasks fine. Due to the vast possibilities and ranges of use and environments we all work and play in.. it's quite possible to use a 2wd/loader tractor to do many tasks suitably. For instance.. on pancake flat ground lifting hay bales on a front spear... that sounds pretty safe to do with a 2wd.. .. I'm not sure what other benefits a 4wd would offer in that situation.. except to line the pocked of the selling dealer.. There are many such situations that could be thought up where 4wd added no benefits, or lowered benefits. I think we all realize that there are also plenty of situations where 4wd offered many more benefits, including safety, again.. based on environment and task.

Give me a break hear, this thread is about 4 wheel drive tractors & my opinion & comment is applied to the subject on the table and does not apply to your 2 wheel drive tractor. How can you take a comment somebody makes and take it out of context and then be sarcastic about it. ?

Yesterday 01:06 PM

 

[Dargo]

This nice long thread was getting dull. Dull is no fun. Now people are talking again. Hey, I've never been known as a person who is afraid of a bit of debate now and then, have I? I don't know how to be PC...

And, I'll admit that I spend 80% of the time in 2wd with my tractor anyway. It's just that 20% is really needed for me. Therefore, you can say that, yes, I do have a 2wd tractor 'most' of the time, but personally I could never get by losing out on that 20% or so of use.