5210 won't start

[coosa]

5210 won\'t start

Hello to all - I have a 1999 model 5210 that has only about 700 hours on it. It has never given a minute's trouble until a few weeks ago. It ran great the last time I used it, and then it wouldn't crank the next week. It was kinda cold, and it didn't seem to be turning over very fast, so I bought a new battery and put it in. Tried it last weekend and that didn't help. I tried some starting fluid and it hit until the starting fluid was used up, then went dead. It is obviously not getting any fuel.

I took the fuel line loose at the injectors, and worked the pump on the fuel filter. Fuel is coming throught the line at least that far. I'm going to replace the fuel filter, but I doubt that is my problem. I'm not much of a diesel mechanic - or gas either for that matter - so I'm not sure what to try next. I don't even know how the injectors operate - are they electric or do they run off the cam shaft or something? If they are electric, I'd suspect that a rat or something may have damaged one of the wires. If not, I've no idea what could have happened. I can't think of much that could have gone wrong with it sitting under a shed. I did add 10 gallons of diesel fuel to the tank after the last time it ran. I suppose it is possible that the fuel was bad, but I bought it at a truck stop that pumps a lot of diesel, so that doesn't seem likely.

This tractor is on my farm 90 miles away, and I only get there on the weekends. It is 60 miles to the nearest JD dealer, and I doubt I could get anyone to come that far to look at it. I don't have a trailer that would haul it. Obviusly, I'm in a fix. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Panache]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

The injector pump has an electric connection which must be powered for the injector pump to work. Mine got dirty and would just stop for no apparent reason. Did you preheat the system by pressing in on the key for 30 seconds before cranking?

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Thanks for the reply Jeff. I have indeed heated the fuel each time I've tried to crank it. I can see the wires running to the injectors, but I don't know how to test them or what to look for to tell if there is a wiring problem.

Steve

 

[Panache]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

My 5200 has 1 wire going to the injector pump with three metal lines going to the injectors. Looking at the JDParts online shows a mechanical injector pump and glowplugs. What you think are electric injectors are probably the glow plugs. There should be an injector pump (on the 5200 it is on the left side of the engine) with three metal tubes going up to the head. check the wire(s) going to the injector pump. Check it for voltage when the Ingition switch is on. When you are preheating can you see the voltage drop? Not having my tractor here I am kind of going from memory.

 

[plowrup]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

When you crank the engine over, does it emit black smoke from the exhaust pipe? I believe what Jeff is refering to is the Fuel Shutoff Solenoid, which could be the problem IF there is not smoke when turning the key.

The Injection system on your machine does not work off of electricity-it is a "pulse" type of system, the Injection Pump overcomes the internal setting of your Injectors, allowing the Injector to "crack" and introduce fuel into the combustion chamber (short version). Didn't you say it was cold when you had this problem? How cold? If the engine is not cranking fast enough, sometimes it will not start-we see it here a lot. But the question becomes again, does it emit black smoke when cranking-

There could be a lot of reasons for your problem-can you give some more info? Like, if it's below,say 25 degress, have you put in #1 Diesel in it (could be The Diesel Fuel gelling)? Sometimes we have to put in a Low Viscosity Hy Gard in colder Temps to allow the engine to crank fast enough to start-

Is it inside or outside? Do you have an engine block heater? Was it plugged in? Have the Air Filters been replaced recently? Fuel Filters? Did you check the Air Intake for a possible mouse/bird nest? Obviously, does it have enough Fuel in the Tank? Lots of possiblilites, tell us more!

 

[Panache]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Coosa, On the TBN site under My Home>Personal information, email, password, etc. >Geographic Location enter something so we can get some idea of where you are located.

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Thanks for all the responses. Jeff, I am located about 15 miles North of Selma, AL. Cold weather could have been a problem the day that it first wouldn't crank; it was about 40 that day. But I tried it Saturday while it was 60, so that isn't the trouble. Also, I put in a new battery that has a higher cold cranking rating than the old battery. When preheating, I notice that the indicator lights in the dash dim a little, so the heater must be working ok. It may well be the glow plugs that I thought were injectors; I'll check the wire you described. Thanks again.

Plowrup - I did not notice any black smoke when cranking it. I wasn't really looking for any, but I don't think it was there. Thanks for the explanation of how it works. It may well be the Fuel Shutoff Solenoid. If it were a gasoline engine, I would be pretty confident that it somehow had stopped getting any fire from the spark plugs. My outboard acted this way a few weeks ago and I traced it to a faulty kill switch pretty easily. If this solenoid was bad, I assume that would not allow any fuel at all to be injected?

What powers the injection pump? Does it run off the cam shaft? It is pretty hard to work on something when you don't understand how it works.

The air filter was replaced last summer. I didn't take the air filter apart, but the starting fluid sure didn't get blocked by anything when I sprayed it into the air intake. There is a full tank of fuel, in fact it is filled to the top and that is something I don't usually do.

I hope this is enough info to answer all of the questions. Thanks again for the help.

 

[plowrup]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Well,

Here is the bottom line on fuel-no black smoke, no fuel in the Cylinders(some Tractors just haze (light smoke), but smoke (unburnt Fuel).

I can get out the Service Manual and give the exact pressures, but essentially you have a standby pressure (say 1800#) in the System-let's say your Injectors are set at 2250#, the Injection pump rolls around to that Cylinder and Injects enough MORE pressure to overcome the seating pressure on the Injector, the Injector then sprays (hopefully-if your Injectors are in good condition)the Fuel into the Cylinder-again, more to talk about here, but that's the condensed version-it still is a Mechanical/Pump System (unlike some of Deere's bigger engines (8 Litre, 12 Litre,so on)which can be Electronic. On our Skid Steers and smaller engines now, the Fuel Pump is part of the Injector).

AS for how the Injection pump is run, you are correct-it is a gear drive, driven off of the Crankshaft/Camshaft.

 

[lekwyo]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

I recently had the same problem with my 4200. Starts fine one day, then cranks but won't start the next. It is parked in a heated garage making fuel problems unlikely. I researched the TBN forums and found alot of discussions about similiar problems related to the fuel cutoff solenoid. Amperage to this solenoid is controlled by a small electrical part called a thermistor which evidently failed frequently. I replaced this($2.95) and the tractor will start again,although one time without warning it wouldn't start, then 5 min later started just fine which leads me to believe there may still be a problem with the fuel cutoff solenoid. I don't know if your tractor is designed the same way, but I would sure look into the fuel cutoff solenoid before tearing into the fuel system, injectors etc. I am not savvy enough to do a thread, but if you type in " 4200 won't start" in the search part of this foum, you will find discussions about this fuel cutoff solenoid in this forum

 

[Panache]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Steve, Is the tractor 15 miles from Selma or are you? I am in Wetumpka and my tractor is in Equality. (I know the ultimate oxymoron Equality, Alabama.)

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

>>>I am in Wetumpka and my tractor is in Equality.<<<

Jeff, I sent you a PM. I live in Coosa County, only about 25 miles from Equality. Its a small world. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Well, the tractor still won't start. I replaced the fuel filter, and that didn't change a thing. It will still crank and hit a few licks when I spray in some starting fluid, but it goes dead as soon as the fluid runs out. There is no smoke coming out the exhaust; it isn't getting any fuel at all.

The manual shows what it calls an "electric fuel shutoff" on top of the injector pump. There doesn't seem to be anything showing except 2 screws, with wires running to them. As best I could tell, there is current at one screw, but not at the other. Is this a solenoid? If so, I assume the power goes in on one screw and out on the other? If so, could I just jump a wire across the 2 screws and get it to crank?

How do you replace this shutoff? It looks like it is mounted inside the injector pump. I was expecting it to be something mounted on the outside.

I've got an uncle that is going to look at it this weekend, but would sure appreciate any help.

Thanks again,
Steve

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Here's a link to a picture of it. You can see the 2 screws near the center of the picture, though one of the screws is covered by the rubber protector.

http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=250111&ck=

 

[plowrup]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

I do believe the Solenoid is inside of the Injection Pump-

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

>>>I do believe the Solenoid is inside of the Injection Pump<<<

You are right, it is inside. I talked to a JD dealership this afternoon. It is inside the pump, and the pump must be removed with a special tool, which of course, I don't have. But here is the fun part - JD doesn't stock or replace the electric fuel shutoff! It has to be sent off to a place that specializes in pump repair. I'd love to talk to the engineer that designed a system so that a simple solenoid is going to probably cost several hundred dollars and who knows how long to replace.

Thanks for all the help. Looks like I'm going to be paying for not one, but two service calls. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[plowrup]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

I can understand your concern. Injection Pumps need to be serviced in a clean environment (sometimes referred to as a clean room), something very few JD Dealerships have. Injection Pump repair (in this Industry) is 99% farmed out to reputable repair shops-we used to be able to repair the old Roosa Master Pumps, but that design has long since been replaced-I realize that it is an inconvenience, but I have noticed that the Tractors that have an outside mounted Solenoid do tend to have more trouble (being exposed to dirt, fuel, the elements, so on)-

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

>>>I realize that it is an inconvenience, but I have noticed that the Tractors that have an outside mounted Solenoid do tend to have more trouble (being exposed to dirt, fuel, the elements, so on)-<<<

Thanks for the info. Of course, if the solenoid was mounted on the outside I could easily replace it myself. Somehow, I suspect that might be the whole point of mounting it inside. I sure wish that it had a manual shutoff, and I'm already thinking of getting rid of this tractor and finding one that doesn't have an electric shutoff. But first, I gotta get it cranked. Looks like that will be several weeks away.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[plowrup]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

Might consider calling the Injection Pump shop yourself, some Shops will pull the Pump and fix it in Shop-make sure they are a reputable, warranty repair Station-might save you some time-

With regard to the increased complexity of the Shutoff system, I could be absolutely wrong with this statement (I'm certain someone will correct me on this), but I am not aware of any major Tractors made today without an Electric Fuel Shutoff-

 

[coosa]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

>>>With regard to the increased complexity of the Shutoff system, I could be absolutely wrong with this statement (I'm certain someone will correct me on this), but I am not aware of any major Tractors made today without an Electric Fuel Shutoff- <<<

Thanks again for the info plowrup. They may not make them that way anymore, but they made plenty of them in the past, and I'm sure I can find a good one if I look. And even 20 years old, they can be a heck of a lot more reliable than the junk that is made today. I've got a Super C that was made in the late 40's that is more reliable than this thing. And when it does cause a problem, I can usually fix it myself.

Take care.

 

[bucmeister]

Re: 5210 won\'t start

lekwyo, Where is this thermistor located. I have a 5300 that has out of the blue started shutting off, just like the switch has been turned off, on recrank it will fire up to about 1300 rpm then die again. Checked the fuse to the shut off solenoid it was fine, neighbor tapped on solenoid as engine was running and it would almost die then rev up over and over. Pulled the solenoid cleaned it up the tractor at least ran long enough to get it to the house as long as I did not put a bind on it. Am guessing a new solenoid is in the future but it would not hurt at all to check this thermistor thing. Guess I could run a direct fused line to it cause it takes 12 volts. Wonder what a new solenoid runs, thankfully mine is external and field accessible.