5570 - Serious problem and I need some good advice

[MsBehave]

I have been lurking here for a long time and now I need to ask for specific help.

A few months ago, I purchased a new 2015 Mahindra 5570 4WD w/FEL. I love my tractor. It does everything I need and is the first new tractor on this farm in decades. However....

My 35 year old son (not a tractor noob) was cutting brush with our wonderful, old JD brush hog. He was trying to maneuver around a small, felled tree that a windstorm had taken out a few weeks earlier when he managed to puncture the oil filter with a broken limb/stump/whatever. He was unaware until the oil pressure light came on. He immediately shut down the tractor and walked back to the house.

Since it was a Saturday afternoon and we didn't have a spare filter at the house (I know, I know), we let it sit a few days before picking up another filter. Drained the oil (there was still about half left) and filtered it thru very fine mesh (as always). Since the machine had only 99 hrs on it, we were still looking for bits and pieces from wear - found a couple of teeny bits, nothing more or unusual.

Finished the unscheduled oil change, hopped on the tractor and nothing - wouldn't start. WTH? We immediately thought there is no way we seized this motor...right?? It did not overheat, it made no strange noises nor did it shut down on its own. We checked everything -pulled the starter and had it tested, jacked up one side and tried turning the rear wheel, you name it. We have no good tractor mechanics near us, so we had a friend that's a cracker-jack diesel mechanic come out to have a look. He is just as baffled.

I began to accept the fact that maybe the motor was indeed seized so I called my dealer for a repair quote - I knew this would not be cheap, but I was in no way prepared for the answer. According to the Service Writer, this is definitely not covered by warranty and they don't repair these new ones anyway - they just replace the motor and that will be $26,000, please I only paid $29K for the whole, **** tractor!! I was and still am in shock. I can now buy the exact same machine at another dealer for $28K!

Has anyone had this experience? How in the world can they diagnose the issue over the phone AND insist it is unfixable? If this is indeed the case, I will be parting out my almost new lawn ornament and buying anything but a Mahindra.

OK - enough with the venting. If anyone has a suggestion, I am all ears. My son and I are not tractor mechanics, but we do know a lot about motors and are very good about maintenance/general repair. Because this is a 4WD, the only way to access the oil pan is removal of the drive shaft and frankly, we are sick of messing with this. We are aware that is best way to diagnose just exactly what's "seized". However, we are of a mind to take this to a different dealer in the area just to get another opinion.

 

[BobG_in_VA]

If it truly still had a half of crankcase of oil, I would suggest that you take it out of 4 wheel drive (if its in 4 wheel), put the tractor in the highest forward gear you have on it, get another tractor with a good logging chain and "slowly" move forward...if its seized (for real), it will just scid along...if its not it should turn the engine over...mind you, DON'T turn the key on..as a matter of fact, pull out the fuel shut off...you want to have the engine turn over, pump some oil up to the top cyls, after about 30 seconds, you can then push in the fuel shut off and start it with the pulling unit..let it idle for a few minutes, monitoring the oil pressure, etc. Just may work and say you some $Ks... BobG in VA

 

[hawkeye08]

What are the symptoms?

Probably does not do anything since you think it might be seized,

Does it click when you try to start?
Any warning lights on?
PTO still engaged perhaps?

Make sure none of the safety interlocks are preventing it from starting. My Kubota tells me when I have left something in the wrong position, but I don't know your tractor.

 

[DavesTractor]

Seems it should not be seized unless it ran for much more than a mere moment with the oil light on. And if you had half the oil remaining in the crankcase, it sure supports your statement that it was shut off right away.

Insurance does not cover normal mechanical failure or wear and tear, but it will often cover a sudden accidental event that occurred external to the engine. It depends on your insurance, but I'd check that.

The engine can't be $26k. Worse case scenario you need a long block.

 

[motownbrowne]

PTO switch still on?

 

[4570Man]

Not exactly a recommended practice, but put the tractor in neutral and set the parking brake and then jump across the starter terminals. I bet it turns over. I seriously doubt the engine is seized.

 

[sd455dan]

Can you get to the front of the crankshaft and see if a socket will fit the bolt and get a 1/2 or larger ratchet on it?

If it turns it is not seized...
another way to rotate the crank is with the starter removed to use a large standard screw driver or pry bar to engage the ring gear teeth and move (pry) the flywheel teeth a bit to see if it is truly seized. The ring gear has more leverage built in due to diameter.

one other thought - you should still be able to hear the starter drive pinion engage the ring gear ( even if the ring gear doesn't turn) should be a good click. No noise at all- possibly means an electrical problem.

Here's hoping that engine is not seized.

 

[DavesTractor]

MSRP on a complete short block is $5244.60 plus freight. That is complete with oil pan, front gears and cover, of course crank, pistons, etc. You would have to swap the head over and all accessories, fuel system and so forth. Still a ton of money, but it is $21k less than what you were quoted.

I still doubt it is seized. I like the comment about checking the PTO lever...sometimes it can be the simple things we overlook.

 

[MsBehave]

If it truly still had a half of crankcase of oil, I would suggest that you take it out of 4 wheel drive (if its in 4 wheel), put the tractor in the highest forward gear you have on it, get another tractor with a good logging chain and "slowly" move forward...if its seized (for real), it will just scid along...if its not it should turn the engine over...mind you, DON'T turn the key on..as a matter of fact, pull out the fuel shut off...you want to have the engine turn over, pump some oil up to the top cyls, after about 30 seconds, you can then push in the fuel shut off and start it with the pulling unit..let it idle for a few minutes, monitoring the oil pressure, etc. Just may work and say you some $Ks... BobG in VA

We tried this, but since the tractor is sitting on some very loose gravel, it did skid along.

What are the symptoms?

Probably does not do anything since you think it might be seized,

Does it click when you try to start?
Any warning lights on?
PTO still engaged perhaps?

Make sure none of the safety interlocks are preventing it from starting. My Kubota tells me when I have left something in the wrong position, but I don't know your tractor.

No clicks. No warning lights. The 5570 is a very basic tractor
PTO definitely not engaged. The only sound it makes is a dull clunk - no click like solenoid failure.

Seems it should not be seized unless it ran for much more than a mere moment with the oil light on. And if you had half the oil remaining in the crankcase, it sure supports your statement that it was shut off right away.

Insurance does not cover normal mechanical failure or wear and tear, but it will often cover a sudden accidental event that occurred external to the engine. It depends on your insurance, but I'd check that.

The engine can't be $26k. Worse case scenario you need a long block.

That's my thought...I was stunned at the projected cost, to say the least. It did not instill any confidence when the Service Writer said they'd never worked on one of these new Tier IV motors.

PTO switch still on?

If only

Not exactly a recommended practice, but put the tractor in neutral and set the parking brake and then jump across the starter terminals. I bet it turns over. I seriously doubt the engine is seized.

Tried it - smoked the starter ground. We had the starter bench-checked and it's fine. BTW, we had an old Long 4WD we could ONLY start this way. :laughing:

Can you get to the front of the crankshaft and see if a socket will fit the bolt and get a 1/2 or larger ratchet on it?

If it turns it is not seized...
another way to rotate the crank is with the starter removed to use a large standard screw driver or pry bar to engage the ring gear teeth and move (pry) the flywheel teeth a bit to see if it is truly seized. The ring gear has more leverage built in due to diameter.

one other thought - you should still be able to hear the starter drive pinion engage the ring gear ( even if the ring gear doesn't turn) should be a good click. No noise at all- possibly means an electrical problem.

Here's hoping that engine is not seized.

The sound it makes is a very solid thud/clunk when the starter is engaged. Today my son removed the starter (again) and was actually able to move the flywheel with a pry bar - it was tough at first, but got easier with each successive tooth. He did it one-handed so as not to put TOO much pressure on the crankshaft and managed to make it about halfway round before stopping ... more out of fear than anything else. No strange noises, nothing to indicate anything was loose or disconnected. He is going to re-install the starter tomorrow and try starting the engine. The battery is charging now. I am out of town and told him the only phone message I want to hear is a running tractor.

My original thought was perhaps it flash rusted when it got dry or maybe glazed and formed a chemical bond. Because we (foolishly) thought we could cross ref the oil filter, it was removed shortly after the incident (remember, we had no idea it would not re-start). The tractor sat in a very damp, rainy environment for a few days with that oil filter off. No way rain water made it into the motor, but humidity did for sure.

MSRP on a complete short block is $5244.60 plus freight. That is complete with oil pan, front gears and cover, of course crank, pistons, etc. You would have to swap the head over and all accessories, fuel system and so forth. Still a ton of money, but it is $21k less than what you were quoted.

I still doubt it is seized. I like the comment about checking the PTO lever...sometimes it can be the simple things we overlook.

PTO lever is disengaged. Speaking of simple things, my other son did his fair share of building drag racers and wrenchin' on old cars in his teens. He recalled a similar issue with a car he could not start and behaved in a similar fashion. After much head scratchin' he found the ground wire from the battery had a very weak connection. He moved it to a better location and voila! it started. I relayed this theory and that's tomorrow's first project. Since the original problem was unexpected contact with a limb/stump/whatever from the underside of the machine, it is possible the ground wire was affected.

We did manage to locate a reputedly good tractor mechanic in our area who will make a house call. If there's no more progress tomorrow, we'll be calling him, but with the flywheel being more or less "free" I am a bit more hopeful my lawn ornament will soon be mobile again. I will keep you posted and thanks to all for the input.

 

[PILOON]

With the low hours (99) that engine is still stiff and since you still had oil in the sump I very much doubt the engine is seized.
In fact you confirmed that you could turn it via the ring gear.
I am sure it is some minor thing perhaps even as simple as grounds or connections.
Another possibility since he did an emergency shut down.
Is the PTO still engaged? if so that is a major load for the starter to spin.

I'd say cheer up, you will find it is something minor and you'll feel kinda, well stupid.

 

[sd455dan]

We tried this, but since the tractor is sitting on some very loose gravel, it did skid along.



No clicks. No warning lights. The 5570 is a very basic tractor
PTO definitely not engaged. The only sound it makes is a dull clunk - no click like solenoid failure.



That's my thought...I was stunned at the projected cost, to say the least. It did not instill any confidence when the Service Writer said they'd never worked on one of these new Tier IV motors.



If only



Tried it - smoked the starter ground. We had the starter bench-checked and it's fine. BTW, we had an old Long 4WD we could ONLY start this way. :laughing:



The sound it makes is a very solid thud/clunk when the starter is engaged. Today my son removed the starter (again) and was actually able to move the flywheel with a pry bar - it was tough at first, but got easier with each successive tooth. He did it one-handed so as not to put TOO much pressure on the crankshaft and managed to make it about halfway round before stopping ... more out of fear than anything else. No strange noises, nothing to indicate anything was loose or disconnected. He is going to re-install the starter tomorrow and try starting the engine. The battery is charging now. I am out of town and told him the only phone message I want to hear is a running tractor.

My original thought was perhaps it flash rusted when it got dry or maybe glazed and formed a chemical bond. Because we (foolishly) thought we could cross ref the oil filter, it was removed shortly after the incident (remember, we had no idea it would not re-start). The tractor sat in a very damp, rainy environment for a few days with that oil filter off. No way rain water made it into the motor, but humidity did for sure.



PTO lever is disengaged. Speaking of simple things, my other son did his fair share of building drag racers and wrenchin' on old cars in his teens. He recalled a similar issue with a car he could not start and behaved in a similar fashion. After much head scratchin' he found the ground wire from the battery had a very weak connection. He moved it to a better location and voila! it started. I relayed this theory and that's tomorrow's first project. Since the original problem was unexpected contact with a limb/stump/whatever from the underside of the machine, it is possible the ground wire was affected.

We did manage to locate a reputedly good tractor mechanic in our area who will make a house call. If there's no more progress tomorrow, we'll be calling him, but with the flywheel being more or less "free" I am a bit more hopeful my lawn ornament will soon be mobile again. I will keep you posted and thanks to all for the input.

Good news that he was able to get the ring gear to rotate, still a bit odd that it was somewhat stuck at first.

Any chance some rain water got into a cylinder through the exhaust and caused a hydro lock or sticky rings due to some surface rust?
i see you referenced humidity, does it have a vertical exhaust and if so a flapper to keep the rain out?

Also on the ground wire that smoked - was it confined to an end or connection, or was the wire heated over the majority of it's length.

Heating at an isolated place is usually due to a high resistance point in the circuit- whereas heating over the entire length is much more likely to be from excessive current due to the starter trying to turn a locked engine. I hope it is at an isolated point, which as you stated could just be a bad connection caused by the stick or whatever nailed the filter.
Also the fact that you did not mention the + cable getting as Hot as the ground since the current flowing thru both cables should be virtually the same during cranking -it appears you have found the culprit

Anyway things seem to be looking up. Hope more good news is in your tractors future.

 

[MsBehave]

Good news that he was able to get the ring gear to rotate, still a bit odd that it was somewhat stuck at first.

Any chance some rain water got into a cylinder through the exhaust and caused a hydro lock or sticky rings due to some surface rust?
i see you referenced humidity, does it have a vertical exhaust and if so a flapper to keep the rain out?

Also on the ground wire that smoked - was it confined to an end or connection, or was the wire heated over the majority of it's length.

Heating at an isolated place is usually due to a high resistance point in the circuit- whereas heating over the entire length is much more likely to be from excessive current due to the starter trying to turn a locked engine. I hope it is at an isolated point, which as you stated could just be a bad connection caused by the stick or whatever nailed the filter.
Also the fact that you did not mention the + cable getting as Hot as the ground since the current flowing thru both cables should be virtually the same during cranking -it appears you have found the culprit

Anyway things seem to be looking up. Hope more good news is in your tractors future.

It does have a vertical stack, but there's a curve at the top so there is no flapper. The rain was nonstop and the wind gusty for a few days while the tractor sat in the field, so moisture could very well have gotten in thru the exhaust (hadn't thought of that). I firmly believe the cylinder flash rusted and that the tractor likely would have restarted that day if we'd been able to replace filter & oil immediately after the incident.

The heat is at an isolated point on the ground cable - melted thru the insulation - and the positive cable did NOT get hot. Hey, just finding the cost of a short block is $21k less than the quoted replacement cost is good news for me Funny how perspective can change.

 

[roadhunter]

This sounds like something I could pull off. 4 days later after I disassembled the engine I'd find a switch, battery cable loose or somethign stupid was causing the problem and had nothing to do with the engine.

 

[DavesTractor]

It does have a vertical stack, but there's a curve at the top so there is no flapper. The rain was nonstop and the wind gusty for a few days while the tractor sat in the field, so moisture could very well have gotten in thru the exhaust (hadn't thought of that). I firmly believe the cylinder flash rusted and that the tractor likely would have restarted that day if we'd been able to replace filter & oil immediately after the incident.

The heat is at an isolated point on the ground cable - melted thru the insulation - and the positive cable did NOT get hot. Hey, just finding the cost of a short block is $21k less than the quoted replacement cost is good news for me Funny how perspective can change.

It's obvious you know quite a bit more than the normal guy that just starts posting on TBN with a problem, so when you get this solved, I hope you stick around.

 

[MsBehave]

It's obvious you know quite a bit more than the normal guy that just starts posting on TBN with a problem, so when you get this solved, I hope you stick around.

Thanks, Dave, but my smarts consists primarily of surrounding myself with people who are much smarter than I And I will definitely stick around - I have my dad's old David Brown/Case that is ALMOST rebuilt and my grandfather's old Super A I'd love to see run again - they both need to get finished during winter down-time. I am sure that's gonna be fun :confused2: No doubt I will need some/lots of advice on these projects.

The Mahindra DID turn over today, albeit very slowly. The battery has taken a lot of abuse during this adventure and is sitting on the big charger right now to see if it's capable of holding a charge. I may be buying a new battery. Either way, by the end of the weekend I should have a better idea whether the machine is OK, repairable or on life-support.

 

[sd455dan]

It does have a vertical stack, but there's a curve at the top so there is no flapper. The rain was nonstop and the wind gusty for a few days while the tractor sat in the field, so moisture could very well have gotten in thru the exhaust (hadn't thought of that). I firmly believe the cylinder flash rusted and that the tractor likely would have restarted that day if we'd been able to replace filter & oil immediately after the incident.

The heat is at an isolated point on the ground cable - melted thru the insulation - and the positive cable did NOT get hot. Hey, just finding the cost of a short block is $21k less than the quoted replacement cost is good news for me Funny how perspective can change.

Overall it sounds like pretty good news, I think replacing that ground cable and cleaning the bolt down area of the connection would be a good idea.
Really sounds like the ground cable is faulty at this point, and once you can get full current flowing to the starter it should speed up the cranking speed quite a bit.
Glad to hear you are making progress

 

[MsBehave]

We're back to square 1.5 - starter still won't turn the motor over. Battery, cables, connections all have been tested and/or replaced. The starter was pulled and tested very early on in this process but we are concerned all the abuse has caused it to fail. Our local starter guru suggested it could be some clutch-like part in the starter that needs replacing - apparently something that doesn't test on the normal bench test. He's going to check it out yet again. As a kid, I recall making many a trip back & forth with tractor starters to the starter guru (the current guru's father). I guess we're particularly hard on 'em

 

[Oldpath05]

Now if a diesel motor runs on compression, how can it be put in gear and pulled by another tractor and expect the motor to turn over, seams to me the injectors would have to be pulled out to relieve compression, other wise if the motor wont start you'll just be dragging the wheels, yes/no/maybe...

 

[Petrol and Powder]

You can push start a diesel, there's no difference between turning the engine over with a starter vs. starting by rolling the machine and turning it over with the drivetrain. However, there is more compression with a diesel than a gas engine so it can be a bit more difficult to get it to turn over without skidding the wheels but it's do-able.
I've jump started many a diesel. Now, that being said, it's a lot harder when they're cold and if you don't have a functioning electrical system and glow plugs, it can be really tough.

Getting back to OP, I would invest in a starter at this point. The engine is clearly not seized and it's possible you simply had two failures (oil filter & starter) that happened to coincide. Bench testing a starter gives you some confidence that it works but the ultimate test is whether or not it actually starts the engine !! I'd borrow a known good battery as well.

 

[RNeumann]

We're back to square 1.5 - starter still won't turn the motor over. Battery, cables, connections all have been tested and/or replaced. The starter was pulled and tested very early on in this process but we are concerned all the abuse has caused it to fail. Our local starter guru suggested it could be some clutch-like part in the starter that needs replacing - apparently something that doesn't test on the normal bench test. He's going to check it out yet again. As a kid, I recall making many a trip back & forth with tractor starters to the starter guru (the current guru's father). I guess we're particularly hard on 'em

Any update?