AxleHub
Elite Member
I'm a little amazed how some posts have "merged" dis-similar issues and tried to make them sound logical.
1. The initial issue was 87 octane fuel (non-ethanol) vs. 93 octane fuel (non-ethanol).
2. If your vehicles engine compression is 9.5 or higher - then you will see performance improvements using 93 octane (non-ethanol). Why? Because higher octane burns slower and higher compression engines take longer to fully burn the fuel in the cylinders. Many vehicles use engines with 9.5 or higher - and any of those will benefit from a higher octane (non-ethanol) fuel. those benefits come from more complete burning of the fuels which gives improved mileage or power or both. But if your engine is a lower compression engine - high octane doesn't do anything for you. However using a lower octane (non-ethanol) in a higher compression engine will exhaust more unspent fuel - in other words, not as good a mileage as possible or as good a power as possible coming from that high compression engine. To say this is about "racers" or "race track" is just silly. My particular Chevy Silverado has a 10 compression ratio (its a 2 wheel drive SS).
3. "Feeling" changes. Well what about hearing changes in fuel. Poorly burning/operating engines will hesitate, lurch, make noticeable sounds from minor jerks and idle changes all the way to knocking and severe knocking.
The first three have nothing to do with ethanol. Now we switch to ethanol issues.
4. Ethanol use started in 1908 when it was used as a solvent in fuel in very small quantities. At that time the production of gasoline was just beginning and was extremely poor in quality.
5. If people tell you they've been using E10 since the late 70's or early 80's - then its a pretty good trick - because its been just short of 30 years since ethanol started being used. In 1989 you'd find it in Iowa but in other Midwestern states not until the early or mid 90's depending on geography.
6. Ethanol is an alcohol while gasoline is a petroleum product. In other words - "blended" is not the same as "joined" because they are not made of the same thing.
7. Ethanol's real motivating purpose is not clean air - its fuel independence and was initiated after all the Iran/U.S. issues of fuel boycotts began. Unfortunately ethanol is made from corn by-product and is not nearly as efficient a production product as other ethanol countries have. As the U.S. subsidies are now declining rapidly - ethanol materials cost far too much to truck to the plants and produce far less product than can support its use - and some large ethanol manufacturers have closed completely or curtailed expansion plans in the last few years.
8. Regarding the "clean air" concept some cling to about ethanol usage - while corn based ethanol reduces carbon monoxide - compared to straight fuel - it INCREASES formaldehyde output and ozone output by a fair amount. In addition - the ethanol processing plants have some rather significant exhaust-to-atmosphere effects - not to mention all the trucking of raw materials is an issue both for air pollution and road requirements because you can't "pipeline" corn byproducts to the plants and you can't centralize corn production because of the huge quantity of by product required to produce ethanol.
Now a switch to Ethanol fuel vs non-ethanol fuels.
9. In the Midwest - corn ethanol is used as a cheap method of increasing octane ratings because it is a volatile alcohol - not a petroleum product. So ethanol "Premium" is actually a low octane fuel with an artificial "goose" of ethanol. In the Midwest recently, you are now seeing 87 octane regular unleaded now made from 84 octane gas and boosted up to 87 with ethanol (this is a newer trend as of a year ago). And you are now seeing E12 being 84 octane fuel with ethanol boosted to get 89 octane. For those who refer to price savings at the pump - the issue is much larger - because you get less miles of use from each gallon and more maintenance costs on vehicles or engines of equipment - and more government spending.
10. E85 has been essentially "a bust" in most states because the price benefit was very artificial - you had a cheaper price per gallon but typically a 15% to 17% drop in mpg for E85. At any ethanol value named - efficiency is changed compared to straight gas because ethanol fuel contains water (as much as 5% right from the plants). And then there is vehicle maintenance issues with E85 all the way down to E15. And remember - even the government recognize that any ethanol over E10 is harmful to older vehicles and engines. 1st - lead was removed (a good thing - but lead is a lubricant) - and then add a solvent after taking away the lead lubricant too. Personally I'd never use even E10 in any collector cars or older vehicles/engines because the combination of "no lead" and ethanol is a tough issue for older engine designs.
11. Flex fuel equipped vehicles. Just as consumers have been told falsely (or incompletely) for years that ethanol is healthier for the environment - they've been told that flex fuel vehicles can handle E85 or E15 fuels with no issues. The point is - you can't change the chemistry of corn based ethanol - its a harsh solvent while a petroleum product is a lubricant in numerous forms. Is straight gas hard on hands and materials - yes because of its evaporative effects. But corn ethanol is many times more damaging than gasoline or to humans. And no - corn ethanol is not some product you can drink like a distilled product. Remember how many people died or went blind drinking poorly made moonshine? A solvent like ethanol is hard on more reasons than just evaporative - - - its highly flammable and explosive, and its water absorbing.
12. Today - the hopes for ethanol have changed greatly - as we've discovered negatives to ethanol that were not fully disclosed in earlier years (remember too - earlier ethanol plants made huge profits with large gov't subsidies) and Gov't wanted more energy independence at all costs. Then the oil and gas business has rapdily discovered far more efficient methods of exploration that cost much less and find stunning new deposits that often double every 2 years the last 12 to 14 years (making it an exponential change in our fuel supplies). This is science making changes the gov't said weren't possible 12 years ago. We already have too much ozone and formaldehydes at low height levels with Ethanol producing still more - - - - and we've discovered other more productive uses for corn byproducts that didn't exist 20 years ago (besides high fructose corn syrup LOL).
And now for Sta-Bil
13. I've read in some of these posts where sta-bil is like some "the cure" for ethanol. It is not. Sta-bil is also a petroleum based product. It comes in several mixtures designed for certain things. To get the maximum benefits of Sta-bil - the manufacturer suggest continuous use at each and every fill up. So if you put Sta-bil in a tank of ethanol based fuel - you are not getting nearly what you expect. Sta-bil is designed to "continue" the additives put into straight gasoline to keep those additives from breaking down. Its design is to keep corrosion from developing during storage - however it is ill equipped from keeping ethanol from constantly attracting water - unless you specifically use a brand of sta-bil built for ethanol fuel. Sta-bil is not designed to make fuel better - only to keep it from deteriorating. So the logic that a person uses ethanol fuels and then adds sta-bil to it at storage time - is not the logical reasoning some want you to believe. Remember - Sta-bil is not an alcohol - its a petroleum based product - so while you can "blend" a petroleum and an alcohol - that doesn't join them. That's a big difference.
jmho
1. The initial issue was 87 octane fuel (non-ethanol) vs. 93 octane fuel (non-ethanol).
2. If your vehicles engine compression is 9.5 or higher - then you will see performance improvements using 93 octane (non-ethanol). Why? Because higher octane burns slower and higher compression engines take longer to fully burn the fuel in the cylinders. Many vehicles use engines with 9.5 or higher - and any of those will benefit from a higher octane (non-ethanol) fuel. those benefits come from more complete burning of the fuels which gives improved mileage or power or both. But if your engine is a lower compression engine - high octane doesn't do anything for you. However using a lower octane (non-ethanol) in a higher compression engine will exhaust more unspent fuel - in other words, not as good a mileage as possible or as good a power as possible coming from that high compression engine. To say this is about "racers" or "race track" is just silly. My particular Chevy Silverado has a 10 compression ratio (its a 2 wheel drive SS).
3. "Feeling" changes. Well what about hearing changes in fuel. Poorly burning/operating engines will hesitate, lurch, make noticeable sounds from minor jerks and idle changes all the way to knocking and severe knocking.
The first three have nothing to do with ethanol. Now we switch to ethanol issues.
4. Ethanol use started in 1908 when it was used as a solvent in fuel in very small quantities. At that time the production of gasoline was just beginning and was extremely poor in quality.
5. If people tell you they've been using E10 since the late 70's or early 80's - then its a pretty good trick - because its been just short of 30 years since ethanol started being used. In 1989 you'd find it in Iowa but in other Midwestern states not until the early or mid 90's depending on geography.
6. Ethanol is an alcohol while gasoline is a petroleum product. In other words - "blended" is not the same as "joined" because they are not made of the same thing.
7. Ethanol's real motivating purpose is not clean air - its fuel independence and was initiated after all the Iran/U.S. issues of fuel boycotts began. Unfortunately ethanol is made from corn by-product and is not nearly as efficient a production product as other ethanol countries have. As the U.S. subsidies are now declining rapidly - ethanol materials cost far too much to truck to the plants and produce far less product than can support its use - and some large ethanol manufacturers have closed completely or curtailed expansion plans in the last few years.
8. Regarding the "clean air" concept some cling to about ethanol usage - while corn based ethanol reduces carbon monoxide - compared to straight fuel - it INCREASES formaldehyde output and ozone output by a fair amount. In addition - the ethanol processing plants have some rather significant exhaust-to-atmosphere effects - not to mention all the trucking of raw materials is an issue both for air pollution and road requirements because you can't "pipeline" corn byproducts to the plants and you can't centralize corn production because of the huge quantity of by product required to produce ethanol.
Now a switch to Ethanol fuel vs non-ethanol fuels.
9. In the Midwest - corn ethanol is used as a cheap method of increasing octane ratings because it is a volatile alcohol - not a petroleum product. So ethanol "Premium" is actually a low octane fuel with an artificial "goose" of ethanol. In the Midwest recently, you are now seeing 87 octane regular unleaded now made from 84 octane gas and boosted up to 87 with ethanol (this is a newer trend as of a year ago). And you are now seeing E12 being 84 octane fuel with ethanol boosted to get 89 octane. For those who refer to price savings at the pump - the issue is much larger - because you get less miles of use from each gallon and more maintenance costs on vehicles or engines of equipment - and more government spending.
10. E85 has been essentially "a bust" in most states because the price benefit was very artificial - you had a cheaper price per gallon but typically a 15% to 17% drop in mpg for E85. At any ethanol value named - efficiency is changed compared to straight gas because ethanol fuel contains water (as much as 5% right from the plants). And then there is vehicle maintenance issues with E85 all the way down to E15. And remember - even the government recognize that any ethanol over E10 is harmful to older vehicles and engines. 1st - lead was removed (a good thing - but lead is a lubricant) - and then add a solvent after taking away the lead lubricant too. Personally I'd never use even E10 in any collector cars or older vehicles/engines because the combination of "no lead" and ethanol is a tough issue for older engine designs.
11. Flex fuel equipped vehicles. Just as consumers have been told falsely (or incompletely) for years that ethanol is healthier for the environment - they've been told that flex fuel vehicles can handle E85 or E15 fuels with no issues. The point is - you can't change the chemistry of corn based ethanol - its a harsh solvent while a petroleum product is a lubricant in numerous forms. Is straight gas hard on hands and materials - yes because of its evaporative effects. But corn ethanol is many times more damaging than gasoline or to humans. And no - corn ethanol is not some product you can drink like a distilled product. Remember how many people died or went blind drinking poorly made moonshine? A solvent like ethanol is hard on more reasons than just evaporative - - - its highly flammable and explosive, and its water absorbing.
12. Today - the hopes for ethanol have changed greatly - as we've discovered negatives to ethanol that were not fully disclosed in earlier years (remember too - earlier ethanol plants made huge profits with large gov't subsidies) and Gov't wanted more energy independence at all costs. Then the oil and gas business has rapdily discovered far more efficient methods of exploration that cost much less and find stunning new deposits that often double every 2 years the last 12 to 14 years (making it an exponential change in our fuel supplies). This is science making changes the gov't said weren't possible 12 years ago. We already have too much ozone and formaldehydes at low height levels with Ethanol producing still more - - - - and we've discovered other more productive uses for corn byproducts that didn't exist 20 years ago (besides high fructose corn syrup LOL).
And now for Sta-Bil
13. I've read in some of these posts where sta-bil is like some "the cure" for ethanol. It is not. Sta-bil is also a petroleum based product. It comes in several mixtures designed for certain things. To get the maximum benefits of Sta-bil - the manufacturer suggest continuous use at each and every fill up. So if you put Sta-bil in a tank of ethanol based fuel - you are not getting nearly what you expect. Sta-bil is designed to "continue" the additives put into straight gasoline to keep those additives from breaking down. Its design is to keep corrosion from developing during storage - however it is ill equipped from keeping ethanol from constantly attracting water - unless you specifically use a brand of sta-bil built for ethanol fuel. Sta-bil is not designed to make fuel better - only to keep it from deteriorating. So the logic that a person uses ethanol fuels and then adds sta-bil to it at storage time - is not the logical reasoning some want you to believe. Remember - Sta-bil is not an alcohol - its a petroleum based product - so while you can "blend" a petroleum and an alcohol - that doesn't join them. That's a big difference.
jmho
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