A solar powered generator?

   / A solar powered generator? #41  
I have a blue eddie AC 200 for my cabin. They are fantastic. I can run the entire cabin for days if there is no sun. I only have one solar panel @350 watts that keeps it charged up to 80% then it floats it. I set the generator to charge up to 80% and shut off at 20%. Never seen it get to 20%, but that is the range they say will keep the battery operating the longest. Everything is so easy and self contained.

I was skeptable, but my neighbor has one and convinced me to get one. Best thing ever. I haven't turned on my generator much lately, just to run power tools.

They are the way to go...
 
   / A solar powered generator? #42  
I would be curious to know how much a 25KW system would cost from them. Not interested enough to start getting blown up with sales information but curious nonetheless.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #43  
We have wanted to put in solar power at our house for years. When I designed the house, I made sure we had close to the optimum roof pitch to maximize solar power production and we sited the house to do the same. We just don't have the money to put in a system and the ROI is iffy.

What the government gives they can take away. Spain USED to have very substantial subsidies for installing solar panels, but then the government got into financial troubles and they ended the subsidies. Fair enough. What was not fair, is that the Spanish government started to tax the solar panel installations at a high enough rate that people removed the panels....

NC has had many different subsidies and regulations over the years for solar. Years ago, I went to a solar power class at the community college, and the one big take away for me was to NOT try to sell your power back to the grid in NC. The regulations and payment scheme just did not make it easy to sell the power back to the grid. The design point for a solar power system in my area of NC, was/is to figure out your power usage, and build a system so that you do not over produce power to sell to the power company.

I think it was last year that a new bill regarding solar power was passed into NC law. The bill at one point was 50 pages long. :eek: The bill passed into law was 10 pages. :unsure: There was an article recently about solar power systems in NC and they were saying the ROI went from 10 years to 20 because of the new law. What is odd, is that the solar power people were part of the creation of the bill and law.

The problem with the Teslsa Power wall, and similar installations, is that the last time I checked, it used lithium batteries. There are all sorts of different lithium battery chemistries. My assumption is that Tesla's Power wall is using the batteries in their cars. These batteries can catch fire and are very difficult to put out. It is not likely, but if one had a "lithium" power wall catch fire, you are going to loose the house. There are "lithium" batteries called LiFePo(Lithium Iron Phosphate) that are used in boat and RV installations that are very safe. I have never read of a LiFePo battery catching fire even though there are videos of the batteries being abused and tossed into a fire. I have seen a video of a lab test of a very large LiFePo battery installation that was on fire as a lab experiment but that is the outlier. LiFePo batteries do not have the energy density of a lithium car battery but the LiFePo batteries are being used in applications were maximum energy density is required.

You have to be careful with buying lithium batteries, including LiFePo. The "drop in" LiFePo batteries are problematic so beware. Victron and MasterVolt sell LiFePo batteries, chargers, inverters, etc., that one needs for an off the grid or grid tied system. Note, you can't just take a battery charger for lead acid and try to charge a "lithium" battery, if you do, most likely you will kill the battery. One can buy equipment from MasterVolt or Victron to setup a PV and battery system and not get locked into a single company solution. The last time I read up on the Tesla Powerwall, it could only be charged from solar or from the grid. If you needed to recharge the PowerWall with a generator you were SOL. With a system from Victron or Mastervolt, charging from wind, solar, the grid, or a generator is easily done. It is not uncommon to have boats that are charging battery systems with wind, solar, the grid, generators and alternator(s).

The big problem in all of this is cost, and while prices have really dropped over the years, even at solar panels and batteries costing around $1 per watt hour, a system is still expensive. Our average power usage year round is about 45 KW per day. It is higher in the winter and summer due to HVAC use and in the 30's during spring and fall. We get a bit more than five hours of maximum solar production a day at my latitude during the summer a bit under five hours during the winter. The rule of thumb is that you will get 77% of the solar power generated on the roof at your power outlet. Soooo, if we put up 10,000 watt hours of panels on our roof , we would generated 50KW per day but get 38.5KW at the outlets. This would likely keep us from overproducing power and giving free power to the power company.

However, if it costs us $2 per watt hour to buy and install the solar panel system, and I think $2 would be on the cheap side, that is $20,000. Batteries, chargers and inverters are even more. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that if we wanted to run just some lights, fridge, freezer, hot plate, hot water kettle and the well pump we would need around $25,000 of LiFePo batteries based on the number of amp hours needed to run the well. Batteries are limited by the number of amp hours they can produce. LiFePo is much better than lead acid in this regards but one still has to be mindful of the number amp hours one is pulling from the batteries other wise one degrades the usable lifetime of the battery.

Even if we the battery cost was $15K, that still does not cover the inverters, chargers, etc., so I think a decent PV system, with batteries, would cost $40K at a minimum. Having said that, this might be something we will have to spend as the grid because less reliable as states move from a diversity of continuous power production to single source of energy, aka, natural gas. Not to mention the price increases that will happen as is already happening in Europe. The loss of continuous power production in New York City is likely to lead to rolling black outs in the next few years if they have temps in the upper 90s... The Wall Street Journal had a report on all of this recently, here is quote about MISO cutting power production by 13 gigawatts but only building replacements of 8 gigawatts. By 2024. It is 2022... I would guess that power usage in those states is NOT going to decrease.

Within the footprint of the Midcontinent Independent System Operator, or MISO, which oversees a large regional grid spanning from Louisiana to Manitoba, Canada, coal- and gas-fired power plants supplying more than 13 gigawatts of power are expected to close by 2024 as a result of economic pressures, as well as efforts by some utilities to shift more quickly to renewables to address climate change. Meanwhile, only 8 gigawatts of replacement supplies are under development in the area. Unless more is done to close the gap, MISO could see a capacity shortfall, NERC said. MISO said it is aware of this potential discrepancy but declined to comment on the reasons for it.

Later,
Dan
 
   / A solar powered generator? #44  
I try to not assume because it just gets me into trouble. Even so, Dan is correct that the Tesla Powerwall uses lithium ion battery chemistry. The batteries though are Panasonic made cells. I find this surprising. Lithium ion battery cells can indeed catch on fire if abused or built improperly or both. Witness the laptop batteries that were bursting into flame and sometimes exploding several years ago. Apparently these batteries were counterfeit or the charging circuits were or maybe both.
I would not worry about using a Tesla Powerwall though because the battery management systems in the things work very well to avoid situations that could cause runaway heating and subsequent fire in the lithium cells in the Powerwalls.
Almost everybody parks gasoline powered cars in their garages. Gasoline is very flammable, very volatile, can easily mix with air and explode. And gasoline contains more chemical energy than nitro glycerin. Yet nobody worries about this because cars and other gasoline powered equipment is designed to avoid fires and explosions. Powerwalls are no different.
There may be reasons for a certain person to avoid using a powerwall but safety is not a reason I would avoid using one.
Eric
 
   / A solar powered generator? #45  
Almost everybody parks gasoline powered cars in their garages. Gasoline is very flammable, very volatile, can easily mix with air and explode. And gasoline contains more chemical energy than nitro glycerin. Yet nobody worries about this because cars and other gasoline powered equipment is designed to avoid fires and explosions.
Call me paranoid, yet I wouldn't have an attached garage for the very reasons you mention. I want it at least 25 feet from where I am sleeping, preferably farther.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #46  
I try to not assume because it just gets me into trouble. Even so, Dan is correct that the Tesla Powerwall uses lithium ion battery chemistry. The batteries though are Panasonic made cells. I find this surprising. Lithium ion battery cells can indeed catch on fire if abused or built improperly or both. Witness the laptop batteries that were bursting into flame and sometimes exploding several years ago. Apparently these batteries were counterfeit or the charging circuits were or maybe both.
I would not worry about using a Tesla Powerwall though because the battery management systems in the things work very well to avoid situations that could cause runaway heating and subsequent fire in the lithium cells in the Powerwalls.
Almost everybody parks gasoline powered cars in their garages. Gasoline is very flammable, very volatile, can easily mix with air and explode. And gasoline contains more chemical energy than nitro glycerin. Yet nobody worries about this because cars and other gasoline powered equipment is designed to avoid fires and explosions. Powerwalls are no different.
There may be reasons for a certain person to avoid using a powerwall but safety is not a reason I would avoid using one.
Eric
how about the walmart tesla powerwall fires?


 
   / A solar powered generator? #47  
Call me paranoid, yet I wouldn't have an attached garage for the very reasons you mention. I want it at least 25 feet from where I am sleeping, preferably farther.
im not that paranoid. ive had attached garages my entire life.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #48  
I will gather some info on motor starting systems. As for typical single phase motors that don't use starting caps they are everywhere. Fractional horsepower motors. Like on bench grinders and drill presses and small pumps. If the motor doesn't have a hump on the side and you can hear a clicking sound coming from the motor when it is turned off then it has a starting winding but no capacitor.
Eric
So I had some time this evening and looked for something I could link to that explained systems I was talking about to help start induction motors. Here is one link: https://www.histo.cat/e/What-Start-Boost-Capacitors-PSC-motor-AC-Hard-Start
The link is to a web site that is pretty informative and should help you if you decide to look for and buy a start boost capacitor setup.
I learned about doing this some 40 years ago. At the time I was needing to build a phase converter so that I could power my 3 phase machine from my single phase power. I bought books to learn about how electric motors worked. I made a rotary phase converter. But the best thing was that I learned a lot about how electric motors worked. Electric motor technology has changed a bunch in the last 40 years but most of the change has not been in single phase induction motors. Even though my memory has degraded some I know that the basic single phase motor being powered from single phase electricity has not really changed and is still being produced in huge numbers.
What I learned from a book helped me to build some stuff myself. Using capacitors to help with hard a starting motor is one project that I intended to build but in the end didn't need to when I switched a single phase motor to 3 phase so that I could power another machine with my newly built phase converter. However, I learned how simple it would be to make what I needed and over the years I have seen capacitor based devices made for hard starting motors and remembered what I learned. A couple books I learned from were originally published in the late 40s or early 50s. The technology is pretty old. And kinda brute force. I think the link above is a good way to learn about and find devices to purchase.
There are also today available solid state devices that will soft start motors. A soft starter will not allow the motor to draw the usual starting current. They can be a VFD, which is a Variable Frequency Drive. They can also be a Soft Start motor starter. The VFDs will mostly only start and run 3 phase motors. There is at least one company that makes VFDs for single phase motors. And these will only work for certain types of single phase motors. But there are other soft starters which limit the current the motor can draw. I'm not sure how they work but you google them. Automation Direct sells them. The ones they sell are inexpensive but are surely solid state devices. I have bought a lot of stuff from them and have always been happy. See the link: https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...rPCTt6I1iKb0bKZzIaAn97EALw_wcB#bodycontentppc
The difference between a modern soft starter and and the capacitor based device, or circuit, for hard starting motors is the way they work. The capacitor based solution supplies the current the motor needs to start as fast as possible. The modern soft starter limits the current so that the motor does not come up to speed as fast. The old method is brute force, just the way the motor usually starts off line power and what the motor was designed for. The soft start just starts the motor slower. If the application will tolerate the slower start, like a water well pump, then a soft start would be OK. Since the soft start devices use a lot of solid state devices they would be quite hard to repair. The old tech cap start devices would be easy to repair. I don't know about the longevity of the newer solid state devices. If I had one I would buy another to have on hand so that when the thing fails late Saturday night during a snow storm when we have a house full of relatives staying for days I would be OK. But then I also have spare starting caps and contactors and pressure tank switches just in case. I haven't yet used a starting cap for my well but I did let my neighbor use one when his pressure tank pump motor cap failed on a Saturday afternoon. He was all set to buy a new pump on Monday. He would have needed to take a ferry to the mainland and would have been without water for his family and the other family on the well until he changed out the pump and motor assembly. So he instead bought two caps mail order so he could replace mine and have a spare.
Eric
 
   / A solar powered generator? #49  
Not to nit pick, but those were SolarCity solar panels that had bad wiring (connectors) that corroded and caught fire. Tesla bought SolarCity, and inherited the mess. I'm not saying that I think Tesla's attention to detail is awesome, but it doesn't have anything to do with batteries.

@etpm many of the exploding/melting lithium batteries were traced to a manufacturer that had changed a process that occasionally left metal slivers in the battery, resulting in a large recall. Not Panasonic.

That said, yes, there is a tremendous amount of energy in lithium ion batteries, both in charge and flammable electrolyte, but nothing compared to a gasoline tank. Still, while the lithium ion batteries are quite difficult to ignite, they will burn for some time. (The Tesla batteries meet UL9540A which is a tough standard wherein even the failure of several cells shouldn't cause a "runaway thermal event", aka fire.)

So, don't go popping them with your 12ga, ok?

I think that fear of the unknown often colors our decision making. We all have experience with gasoline tanks, and think that these days automobile caused gasoline fires in garages aren't common events. Yet, the actual rate of gasoline vehicle fires is about ten times that of electric vehicles. https://www.crsautomotive.com/how-prone-are-electric-cars-to-catching-fire/ There are on the order of 6-7,000 garage fires per year in the US, but most (surprise!) are caused by household electrical wiring, often enhanced by flammable stored in the garage.

Home batteries are a sixth to a tenth the size of car batteries, so the odds are even lower. Not zero, but not a top of mind risk either.

All the best,

Peter
 
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   / A solar powered generator? #50  
It doesn't matter whether it's gas or battery operated. Once a car fire starts, there is plenty of other flammable materials to keep it going.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #51  
It doesn't matter whether it's gas or battery operated. Once a car fire starts, there is plenty of other flammable materials to keep it going.
That's why my whole house backup batteries aren't attached to the house, (bolted to a concrete wall, surrounded by concrete). I don't keep any solvents in the garage, most of my solvents and fuels are in a fireproof locker, and almost all of them are in metal containers. I do have a push to dispense 1.25gal plastic gas can for refilling the chainsaw; the metal ones were just too messy during refueling.

We live in a wild land fire zone. Some things are just prudent given the baseline risk of fire here. YMMV, of course.

I will say that having batteries backed up by solar has been great.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / A solar powered generator? #52  
...

That said, yes, there is a tremendous amount of energy in lithium ion batteries, both in charge and flammable electrolyte, but nothing compared to a gasoline tank. Still, while the lithium ion batteries are quite difficult to ignite, they will burn for some time. (The Tesla batteries meet UL9540A which is a tough standard wherein even the failure of several cells shouldn't cause a "runaway thermal event", aka fire.)

So, don't go popping them with your 12ga, ok?

I think that fear of the unknown often colors our decision making. We all have experience with gasoline tanks, and think that these days automobile caused gasoline fires in garages aren't common events. Yet, the actual rate of gasoline vehicle fires is about ten times that of electric vehicles. https://www.crsautomotive.com/how-prone-are-electric-cars-to-catching-fire/ There are on the order of 6-7,000 garage fires per year in the US, but most (surprise!) are caused by household electrical wiring, often enhanced by flammable stored in the garage.
...
The problem with a lithium fueled fire vs gasoline, is that the fire department has a chance to put out a gas fire. A lithium chemical fire is going to be much harder to extinguish and likely going to require a HazMat response.

I have never kept a car in a garage and I kept all of the flammable liquids away from the house. 😁

There is a video of a guy shooting a LiFePo battery with pistol, so no 12ga, :ROFLMAO: and then tossing the battery into a fire. The LiFePo battery did not catch fire. The odds of one of the power walls catching fire are low, but if it does, one had better have good insurance. I had a Dewalt NiCad battery almost catch fire once upon a time. No reason for that to have happened. It just shorted out for some reason. I got lucky in that I smelled smoke, found the over heating battery, and tossed it outside before it caught fire. If it had caught fire, it would have spread but I think I could have contained the blaze. The Dewalt battery is pretty simple with only a few electrical connections, compared to a PowerWall made up of thousands of batteries and corresponding connections.

The flammability of the battery chemistry should be a consideration, among others, when looking at battery back up for a house. Since there are safer lithium battery chemistries from different equipment companies, and one is not locked into a single company, it is an easy to choice to make as far as I am concerned.

Later,
Dan
 
   / A solar powered generator? #53  
im not that paranoid. ive had attached garages my entire life.
That's why the IBC requires a 1 hour firewall assembly between the garage and living space in a house. Built well it can save the house. I saw a new remodel with a garage fire once. A car caught on fire in the garage. The fire department drug a hose through the house, opened the garage doors, and blew the fire right out of the house. No smoke damage to the living area, and no structural damage to the garage.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #54  
It doesn't matter whether it's gas or battery operated. Once a car fire starts, there is plenty of other flammable materials to keep it going.
I got to pull a fire alarm once. I saw a car fire start on the top deck of a parking structure, smoke coming from under the hood. First it was just a puff of smoke, but quickly got bigger. By the time the fire department got there the whole front half was on fire. They pulled it out away from other cars, but didn't really try to put it out, just foamed it and let it burn.

I also ran across this one in a parking lot next to where I worked. From the position of the vehicle, it must have caught on fire while someone was driving it. It was a block from the main fire station, so this is how fast a vehicle fire can progress.

fire.jpg
 
   / A solar powered generator? #55  
That's why my whole house backup batteries aren't attached to the house, (bolted to a concrete wall, surrounded by concrete). I don't keep any solvents in the garage, most of my solvents and fuels are in a fireproof locker, and almost all of them are in metal containers. I do have a push to dispense 1.25gal plastic gas can for refilling the chainsaw; the metal ones were just too messy during refueling.

We live in a wild land fire zone. Some things are just prudent given the baseline risk of fire here. YMMV, of course.

I will say that having batteries backed up by solar has been great.

All the best,

Peter
My setup is similar. The wood shed/garden shed is about 50 feet from the house, and is my flammable storage site. All my propane/gasoline/paint/solvent along with firewood is stored in that building. There is a hot work area in my shop lined with Type X sheetrock, but my coal forge is on wheels and only gets lit outdoors. I have a little propane forge that I sometimes use inside the shop, particularly when it's too dry to start any fire outdoors.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #56  
The problem with a lithium fueled fire vs gasoline, is that the fire department has a chance to put out a gas fire. A lithium chemical fire is going to be much harder to extinguish and likely going to require a HazMat response.

I have never kept a car in a garage and I kept all of the flammable liquids away from the house. 😁

There is a video of a guy shooting a LiFePo battery with pistol, so no 12ga, :ROFLMAO: and then tossing the battery into a fire. The LiFePo battery did not catch fire. The odds of one of the power walls catching fire are low, but if it does, one had better have good insurance. I had a Dewalt NiCad battery almost catch fire once upon a time. No reason for that to have happened. It just shorted out for some reason. I got lucky in that I smelled smoke, found the over heating battery, and tossed it outside before it caught fire. If it had caught fire, it would have spread but I think I could have contained the blaze. The Dewalt battery is pretty simple with only a few electrical connections, compared to a PowerWall made up of thousands of batteries and corresponding connections.

The flammability of the battery chemistry should be a consideration, among others, when looking at battery back up for a house. Since there are safer lithium battery chemistries from different equipment companies, and one is not locked into a single company, it is an easy to choice to make as far as I am concerned.

Later,
Dan
On the firefighting, Tesla's advice has changed from "flood it until cold" to something more along the lines of spray enough water to keep things around it from catching fire. I suspect that is a result of not wanting to wash toxics into local waterways. The recent Lubriplate grease manufacturing plant fire was fought similarly because of a stream close by.

I agree with you that there are a lot of ways to "skin the cat" so to speak, and there a bunch of things that the battery makers are trying to optimize; cost/kWh, kWh/kg, longevity, decay/discharge cycle, depth of discharge with minimal damage, and safety (flammability, resistance to thermal runaway during short circuits, etc.)

At the moment, there isn't a single winner out there (yet), there are only compromises, which is why there a bunch of possibilities available.

I wouldn't put a large lithium ion battery in my bedroom, but in the big picture, once it is a couple of feet away from the house, it would only really be a problem if someone hit it at speed with a heavy vehicle. (Which is why, around here, you have to install hefty bollards every thirty six inches if you want to install batteries inside a garage.) On the other hand, I probably have half a dozen small lithium batteries in the house already.

If you are curious, here is the UL9540A test standard. Tesla's Powerwall, and I believe the Enphase batteries meet it;
UL 9540A Battery Energy Storage System (ESS) Test Method

The test videos are pretty impressive in terms of how hard it is to get a pack to light up.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / A solar powered generator? #57  
Lithium iron phosphate UL9540A test video;
Note this is an 83kWh pack, closer to what a car would have.

Lithium ion UL9540A test video, with fairly lengthy explanations of the test, along with the test videos, where you can see the actual damage;
Again, this is a large battery pack, basically a worst case scenario.

Personally I am surprised on how little burnt besides the batteries.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / A solar powered generator? #58  
I had a Dewalt NiCad battery almost catch fire once upon a time.
I was brush hogging weeds a few years ago. My tractor hit a bump, causing a spare Dewalt battery in my toolbox to bounce out onto the ground. Mower blade sliced it in half.

Instant fire, instant flames, instant emergency. Fire quickly out of control. Wife called 911, and we spent the next 20-30 mins fighting the fire ourselves. Discharged everything we had at it, then used buckets of water. Responding firefighters were amazed we had contained the fire ourselves, at least mostly.

A fire investigator examined the scene, found the sliced battery, and set it aside. 90 minutes later the battery remnant was still so hot you could not handle it without being burned. They asked permission to take the battery remnant to display in their fire museum. They said they had heard of lithium battery fires, but this was their first one. I gave them the battery.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #59  
I was brush hogging weeds a few years ago. My tractor hit a bump, causing a spare Dewalt battery in my toolbox to bounce out onto the ground. Mower blade sliced it in half.

Instant fire, instant flames, instant emergency. Fire quickly out of control. Wife called 911, and we spent the next 20-30 mins fighting the fire ourselves. Discharged everything we had at it, then used buckets of water. Responding firefighters were amazed we had contained the fire ourselves, at least mostly.

A fire investigator examined the scene, found the sliced battery, and set it aside. 90 minutes later the battery remnant was still so hot you could not handle it without being burned. They asked permission to take the battery remnant to display in their fire museum. They said they had heard of lithium battery fires, but this was their first one. I gave them the battery.
And they use lithium to make crystal meth... not that the users are the brightest bulbs in the light.
 
   / A solar powered generator? #60  
Last year I put a new battery in my iPhone 6. They are supposed to be taped in with something similar to a command strip. You pull the tab and the tape comes out from under the battery and out it comes. Well, the tab broke. So while trying to gently pry the battery out of the phone, the battery bent and POOF! a little spark came out of it. It immediately started smoking and a hole started burning through from the inside out. So I quickly stopped being delicate and yanked it out of there and trough it on the cement floor. I grabbed it with a wood stove glove and ran it outside and threw it in the birdbath! 🤣
 

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