A tough one for someone smart in engineering

   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #1  

woodlandfarms

Super Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
6,149
Location
Los Angeles / SW Washington
Tractor
PowerTrac 1850, Kubota RTV x900
OK, I think this is going to be a tough one....

How much weight would it take for my 4000lb 1850 to go into pucker mode.

I am going to upgrade the front lift sometime to 1800 lbs but I was wondering when the pucker would happen. I am heavier and I think longer than the 1445 so it has to be over 1800...

Carl
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #2  
woodlandfarms said:
OK, I think this is going to be a tough one....

How much weight would it take for my 4000lb 1850 to go into pucker mode.

I am going to upgrade the front lift sometime to 1800 lbs but I was wondering when the pucker would happen. I am heavier and I think longer than the 1445 so it has to be over 1800...

Carl

Carl,

Since your lifting weight is around 1200 lbs, the pucker factor on your machine would be around 1200 lbs. It all has to do with the lever principle. 1200 lbs is your safe limit. You could add more weight to the back and lift more.
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #3  
I think the lift arms on the 1445 are considerably stronger than the lift arms on the 1850. I would be particularly concerned about twisting forces if larger loads are carried on the 1850. While installing bigger cylinders will provide more lifting force it will do nothing to increase the twisting loads the lift mechanism can handle.

One of the advantages of the 1845/1850 tractors is the ability to work cross slope on steep slopes. But these are exactly the conditions that create twisting loads on the lift mechanism.
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #4  
Bob999 said:
I think the lift arms on the 1445 are considerably stronger than the lift arms on the 1850. I would be particularly concerned about twisting forces if larger loads are carried on the 1850. While installing bigger cylinders will provide more lifting force it will do nothing to increase the twisting loads the lift mechanism can handle.

One of the advantages of the 1845/1850 tractors is the ability to work cross slope on steep slopes. But these are exactly the conditions that create twisting loads on the lift mechanism.




In order to prove this, you would have to know the thickness of the steel, width, and length. The type of bracing would also be a factor.

I would think the 1850 would have a strong set of lifting arms in order to carry that 90 in mower.

If there was a big difference between the 1445 and the 1850 lifting arms, Carl could order a set of lifting arms for the 1445 to install on his machine, or beef up his lifting arms. I have an older 1445, but my lifting capacity is the same as the 1850 which is 1200 lbs. My lifting arms have three tube bracing, plus the 2 in steel roll over tilt assembly. The thickness on my lifting arms is 3/4 in.

Carl, you could fill those rear tires with a solution and add about 600 lbs to the weight the rear. 4 tires X 75 lbs = 600 lbs.

Carl, you could try this and see if it will satisfy your lifting capacity, but keep an eye on the stress points on the lifting arms.
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #5  
I correct my last post to read 4 rear tires @ 75 lbs =300lbs
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #6  
woodlandfarms said:
OK, I think this is going to be a tough one....

How much weight would it take for my 4000lb 1850 to go into pucker mode.

I am going to upgrade the front lift sometime to 1800 lbs but I was wondering when the pucker would happen. I am heavier and I think longer than the 1445 so it has to be over 1800...

Carl

I have an 1845, not an 1850, so mine picks up at less load than yours. At the limit of balance, of course, it picks up a wheel when you turn. If you can do that with yours with the current cylinders, you'll have to add weight to counterbalance the additional lift, which, as noted by others, threatens the strength of the arms and center joint.
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #7  
As everyone should know, if you are picking up a load at or near the maximum, you may be able to lift and carry that load in a straight line. But as soon as you make a turn, the PT pucker comes into play. Why? You have changed the equalization for your machine and load. When you straighten out the PT, the pucker will go away. Essentially, when you turn, you are shifting the balance in favor of the load. Sad but true.
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering
  • Thread Starter
#8  
See, maybe it is just me and my fat tush but I have yet to have any pucker. I have never felt lite or anything...
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #9  
woodlandfarms said:
See, maybe it is just me and my fat tush but I have yet to have any pucker. I have never felt lite or anything...

With only 1200 lbs of lift and the much larger size of your PT, it may not pucker except in extreme circumstances (pointing downhill on a steep slope, etc.). In comparison, the 1380 lb PT-425 has 800 lbs of lift -- it'll pucker quite readily even on flat land -- 800 lbs out 3.5' to 4' in front of the front wheels will offset the 1380 lbs of the tractor.
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #10  
J_J said:
As everyone should know, if you are picking up a load at or near the maximum, you may be able to lift and carry that load in a straight line. But as soon as you make a turn, the PT pucker comes into play. Why? You have changed the equalization for your machine and load. When you straighten out the PT, the pucker will go away. Essentially, when you turn, you are shifting the balance in favor of the load. Sad but true.

Exactly. There are two factors involved, and two ways to tip your tractor.

You can think of your PT as three point forces, with the front wheels as a pivot point. One point load is the bucket and its cargo. This includes some weight from the arms. There is a second point load at the rear of the tractor, aggregated from the engine, wheels, frame, wheel motors, wheel weights, gas tank, your butt, etc. The third load does not really do anything here, as we can view it as acting on the front axle - the pivot point.

When you move in a straight line with a load up front, you can think of your tractor as a see-saw. Its a simple lever. As long as the weight in back is sufficient to counterbalance the lever arm at the bucket, no problem.

What happens when you turn? You do two things. First, you shorten the effective wheelbase of your tractor. That lever arm to the rear of the tractor is now shorter than it was before. This may cause you to tip forwards. As you tip forwards, if the bucket is lifted high in the air, it gets worse yet, since the bucket load is now farther out in front of you. This makes for an effectively LONGER lever arm in front, making you tip even more.

When you turn, the rear load is no longer centered on the axis of the tractor. So now that big load out back is hanging off to one side or another, but also, the bucket acts as an uncentered load too. Once the center of mass of the tractor moves far enough to one side or the other (outside the wheelbase of your tractor) then you tip to that side.

John
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #11  
I was finally initiated by having the PT pucker with my 1850 about 6 weeks ago. Strange feeling but easily reversible. Now if it had been a regular tractor, I would have had to act extremely quickly or I would have rolled it.

Love the PT!

Ken
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering
  • Thread Starter
#12  
So Ken, tell me what happened. I cannot get the back to rise on my tractor... Even when I grab something that is cleary way too big...
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #13  
woodlandfarms said:
So Ken, tell me what happened. I cannot get the back to rise on my tractor... Even when I grab something that is cleary way too big...

Try grabbing an immovable object with your minihoe, when on a slope, with the PT pointed downhill... :D

I can pucker mine with the minihoe/thumb regardless of slope or how the tractor is positioned on the slope. For example, I can get it to pucker facing uphill, if I grab onto a sapling that it won't pull out of the ground... I've used mine quite a bit for "grubbing" -- pulling out the smaller undergrowth, roots and all, since the wild holly that's all over my lot suckers and sprouts like crazy if you just cut it off. Instead of cutting them off and then using brush/tree killer on the stump (which can puncture tires, etc.), I just pull them out by the roots with minihoe...
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #14  
woodlandfarms said:
So Ken, tell me what happened. I cannot get the back to rise on my tractor... Even when I grab something that is cleary way too big...


Carl, Seem to me that you mentioned that you could not lift at or around the max load, and if that is true, then you will probable never experience the PT pucker. You said your bucket would not lift beyond a certain point. So if your cylinders are not leaking externally, or bypassing internally, then the joystick valve or the pump is not operation up to specs. You can take both those items off and take to a hydraulic shop for testing. I did and found that the hydraulic lift motor was operating at 50%. It did what you said your bucket did, partially lift and quit. You need to do the PT pucker in a controlled mode so you will know what to expect, and what to do about it.
 
   / A tough one for someone smart in engineering #15  
Hi Carl,

I was lifting a heavy load (it could barely lift it - and that was with using the curl to raise a few inches). It was on a slight slope, started to turn and let's do the PT pucker. The load rested on the ground with the rear wheels in the air. Just straightened out the steering and it went back down.

I think my loader valves are crapped up because I can not lift as much as I think I should now.

Ken
 

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