A travesty you should know about

RichZ · Jul 24, 2001

Premarin is a drug that is prescribed to women in menopause or who have had hysterectomies. Premarin (PREgnant MARe urINe), or PMU, is made from the urine of approximately 60,000 pregnant mares. Their foals are considered a mere by-product in the manufacturing of the drug, and are sold at livestock auctions, bought by marketers, sent to feedlots to be fattened, then sent to slaughterhouses for their meat, which is marketed in Europe and Asia. Older mares, who no longer can conceive, are also generally shipped for slaughter. A small percentage of the foals at the PMU farms do not survive due to exposure, starvation or "clubbing" at birth. Of the surviving foals, 90% of fillies (females) and 99% of colts (males) are sent to slaughter. There are several synthetic and plant based alternative on the market today that can replace Premarin, but Premarin is still one of the highest prescibed drugs in the nation, prescribed to an estimated 9 million women. It is manufactured by Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories.
For more info, contact:
Spring Hill Horse Rescue
2617 Union St
Brandon, Vt 05733
(802) 247-2857
www.springhillrescure.com

Thanks,

Rich

cowboydoc · Jul 24, 2001

No offense Rich but this is full of half truths. Yes Premarin is used to treat women and is made from pregnant mare urine but the rest of what you say stops right there. There are articles in all three of the big horse magazines that have investigated this in the last three months: Western Horseman, Equus, and Horse and Rider. None found any of the travestys that you talked about. This is simply not true that these horses are mistreated. The foals are not sold for slaughter unless the slaughter house buys them at the auction, which rarely happens. Yes they are taken to be sold at auctions or are bought right off the farm for a very low price but everyone takes horses to auction to be sold. In all three of the articles the horses were not mistreated at all and led better than average lives. The only horses that go to slaughter are horses that are lame, crippled, or otherwise outlaws or ones noone wants. I personally don't see a problem with this. Much better for an animal to be put down this way than to suffer for years. This whole thing with horse rescue is way overblown. Yes horses that are abused and neglected need to be rescued. That is not the case at these mare farms.

RichZ · Jul 24, 2001

Richard, I had no idea that 3 magazines did articles about this. I'm basing my information on the rescue group. Their information seems pretty convincing, and my wife and I are already in the process of adopting a foal from them.
I certainly look pretty stupid now, as there's no one I respect regarding horses more than you. Is there anyway I could get copies of those articles from you? I'd like to read them, and have the rescue group respond to them.
I appologize to everyone, if my information was wrong, as it appears to be.

Rich

cowboydoc · Jul 24, 2001

Rich go to westernhorseman.com and quarterhorsejournal.com and do a search for PMU. There are a number of articles that are there on it. Some of them you have to order though. I will have one of the girls here at the office see if she can find that most recent one in equus and western horseman.

Bill_Ryan · Jul 24, 2001

My 2 cents worth...

Wrt to any written report or article concerning any topic...be sure to get background of author(s) as well as who funded the article/study and also who advertises in the publication.

All of the above may place bias on the outcome.

Bill

cowboydoc · Jul 24, 2001

Bill,
Just for clarification purposes Dr. Robert Miller is THE authoritative vet on horses in the United States. He wrote the latest article in Western Horseman. You would be hard pressed to find a man who has done more for the horse population. He is a man of incredible integrity that I would believe without a doubt. When he says something it is with a wealth of information and the science or studies to back up what he says. Equus magazine is also devoted primarily to the exclusive rights of horses. They are the left wing of the horse world so if horses are mistreated in any way they will let you know and even they said that the mares and foals in these facilities were well cared for.

ejb · Jul 24, 2001

I guess it must depend on your defintion of mistreated...I can't say I know alot about this drug, or the mistreatment of horses, but I did a quick search on yahoo and came up with dozens and dozens and dozens of organizations that are trying to raise awareness of the mistreatment of horses in the manufacture of premarin. Certainly all those people and organizations can't be completely bonkers? Should we really beleive that all of these organizations and people just don't have there facts straight? or is it closer to the truth to think that they are mistreated, but not anymore than any other farm animal (i.e. chicken or cow). Certainly we are not to believe that these horses are being treated like pets?

kubmech · Jul 24, 2001

Don't get me wrong, I love animals as much, if not more than most. But speaking of travesty, what about the Popes visit to "W" to give him his view of experimenting on human embryos? They say the embryos are leftovers from fertility clinics. SHEESH!! Where do you draw the line??????????????

I know experimentation on animals has made alot of progress in medicine, but who's to say whether a rat or a fuzzy bunny has less or more rights than a horse.

I have personally snipped the testicles out of squeelers all in the name of porkchops and bacon. Does anyone know where veal comes from? What about fur???????? Come on now, where do you draw the line.

Not a rant or any disrespect intended/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Just my thoughts on the big picture...........

Edited by kubmech on 07/24/01 06:24 PM (server time).

glennmac · Jul 24, 2001

I had never heard of this controversy or of premarin. Turns out that it is one of the most frequent drugs prescribed by doctors in the US and Canada. (Premarin = pregnant mare urine)

I dont know the truth about this anymore than anyone else, but what is true is that an internet search turns up scores of articles reporting "facts" essentially similar to the information repeated by RichZ. There appear to dozens of organizations in the US and Canada that are concerned about the mistreatment of the pregnant mares, which are "milked" for their urine during their 11 month gestation period, as well as the treatment of later-born foals. Even the most favorable article towards PMU I found estimates that 30,000 PMU foals are sent to slaughter each year (compared to the 75,000 figure reported by some anti-PMU organizations, which was based on an older Canadian study). One of the issues with the mares is how long a time they are confined in small stalls while they are being milked. Some animal rights articles suggest they never move out of the stall for the entire 11 months. Even the most favorable article seems to suggest they are stalled substantially fulltime for 5 or 6 months.

While I certainly would retain healthy skepticism about "facts" asserted by any advocacy organization, I would retain the same skepticism about "facts" asserted in commercial horse-owner magazines or by pro-PMU vets.

cowboydoc · Jul 24, 2001

Guys this is no different than milking a cow for gosh sakes. Tell you what how about everyone on TBN go on a strike and not drink milk. That's how ridiculous this is. No they are absolutely not treated like pets. They are not pets and neither is a pig, a cow, etc. I know people all over that stall their horse full time! They are rarely turned out from a 10x10 stall. Most of these horses are in a 10x6 stall for up to 8 hours a day and then turned out. Anyone that has half a brain about horses knows that if you leave an animal tyed up for days on end that they are going to stock up. This means that they are going to get fluid in their legs and get edema and then heart failure in a very short time. That simply doesn't happen to these horses. And the comment about the horses not being given water. I mean come on they want the mare's urine. Do you really think that the mares aren't going to be given water? How much do you pee when you don't drink? Yes you can find all sorts of information out there about these facilities. The truth is that yes these mares are hooked up just like a milk cow is that's the truth. Yes every 11 months they have a foal that is true. Yes it is true that some of these foals wind up in slaughter. But again they are not mistreated in any way shape or form!!! They are no more at risk to be sent to slaughter than any other horse at any other auction anywhere else in the country. And so what! WE eat cows, why can't they eat horses? My gosh what is it with this sacred cow issue that you can't eat a horse? It's no more cruel than ordering up a burger. These horses are fed and watered to the max! They have to be to keep up their strength and produce foals and good urine. They are fed round the clock, watered around the clock and treated better than anyone I know treats their horses with regards to basic health.

Now those are the facts period. If you think that is cruelty to animals then so be it that's ok. I personally don't see it but that's ok too. I guess the reason that I am so incensed about this is because the same damn people that propagate this crap also propagate against rodeo and ranching. Rodeo animals as well are some of the most well kept that there are. There are so many rumors and false truths about rodeo as well. But anyway that's how these mare farms are run and yes I have been to them first hand.

DarinRay · Jul 24, 2001

Again I have found an area where I deem fit to comment. You say that rodeo's and rancher's have false rumors about them. Did you ever think that maybe just maybe all racher's don't care for their animals the way you or all the places that you have seen? I mean come on, to think that everything that you've seen first hand is the way that everything is happening in crazy and that's just not the way it is. I will also state that some animal rights people do go overboard but also some animal raisers go overboard on their poor treatment to animals. I would never say that all ranchers treat their animals poorly just like you shoudln't say that there are no mistreatments out there period.

I just say that everyone should always keep an open mind. Period. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Darin

Bird · Jul 24, 2001

My gosh what is it with this sacred cow issue that you can't eat a horse? It's no more cruel than ordering up a burger.

Whew! That ought to upset some folks, but I agree with you./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif We have some friends who've told us that horse steaks are very good. He's retired military, married a French girl when he was stationed over there, and they've told us about the first steak she cooked after they got married and he ate it without knowing it was horse./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif He wouldn't have eaten it if he'd known, but found that it was very good.

Bird

cowboydoc · Jul 25, 2001

Darin,
If you'll reread my posts I did say that there was cruelty to animals but it's across the board it's not just horses, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Your comment about what I've seen first hand and that's just not quite true. You're quite wrong though sir and until you've walked a mile in a person's shoes or even know one thing about what I'm talking about then you shouldn't see yourself deemed fit to comment. I have been all across this country to ranches, ranching operations, etc. I have seen them from one end of the country to the other so I know what goes on. Well this is where this kind of stuff gets started. I'm sure you haven't been to many ranches or that you have never been to a premarin mare farm or ranch but you don't think that someone like me who has been all across the country to them, grew up on them, and lived on them doesn't know. Well heck Darin if I don't know what it's like then who does? Like I said in my first post there is abuse and there is neglect and there is a need for animal rescue shelters but it is not the rule and these premarin mares are not abused like it's said they are either. Sure you may come across a breeder here and there that is bad but you've got a bad apple in every crowd and profession. In my earlier days when I had more time and less money I spent a great deal of time at some of these ranches buying alot of horses where the Premarin babies are raised in N. Dakota and Canada. Most of them raised some decent stock and I could buy them for a song and fit them or keep them a year or two and train them and make a buck. I paid for alot of my college this way so I do know what I'm talking about here. I spent two hours after work tonight tracking down this latest article. So no don't take my somehow tainted view of it in your eyes but take Dr. Robert Miller's view. If you'll do a little research you'll see he's one of the foremost authorities in this country on horses. His views and assessment of the situation is pretty much how I have seen it over the last 15 years.

Yes I do think that I have a right to talk here on this subject. I have the subject of ridicule and had stuff thrown on me and my horses injured at rodeos because of this kind of stupid propaganda crap by protesters. They take one situation or a little bit of truth about one thing and make the gospel out of it and that is just plain not right. I see you are from New York and no there aren't many ranches out there so you probably don't know what I am talking about and that is ok. But when you've been on the other end of these wackos ways it's not too pleasant. You have blood and animal parts thrown on you, your truck and trailer trashed, your animals stolen, your wife and kids called filthy names, and then tell me again how I don't know what the whole story is.

Here is the article from Western Horseman. I'll try and track down the others as well. You make your own mind up about it. Do you want to believe some people who have absolutely no research, no background, no degree, or anything else's word or someone who has spent their life devoted to the health and welfare of horses and is a veterinarian and noted research doctor's word.

cowboydoc · Jul 25, 2001

Re: A travesty you should know about *DELETED*

Post deleted by Muhammad

TWINKLE_TOES · Jul 25, 2001

cowboydoc,

Thanks for taking the time to post the article.

Al

DarinRay · Jul 25, 2001

Richard,

I just did reread your post and here is a part "But again they are not mistreated in any way shape or form!!!". That did strike me as odd. When I was stating my feeling and views I didn't mean to undermine you and most definately didn't want to disrespect you. It's unfortunate that I made you feel taht you needed to back yourself up. ALthough that's good that you can, you see on my side all I read is that there isn't any horse brutality or something and I feel that without seeing everything everwhere then that statement isn't supported. Without reading all the attachments tonight I am only commenting on how I deem it fit to comment on my views as limited as they may be to these kinds of statements. Anyway as far as what else you stated "until you've walked a mile in a person's shoes or even know one thing about what I'm talking about then you shouldn't see yourself deemed fit to comment." I can't believe you even said that when that is exactly how people learn that don't have the abilitly to have such background. If I wouldn't comment then how can I possibly be taught or redirected? This is the only reason why I even commented and you said it after saying that it simply doesn't happen period. (Sure you may come across a breeder here and there that is bad but you've got a bad apple in every crowd and profession) That's it!!! Nothing meant really about you personally for I've learned alot from this board and from people like you and yes I do throw in my uneducated comments so I can be corrected. But anyway/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I'm finished.

[[Yes I do think that I have a right to talk here on this subject. I have the subject of ridicule and had stuff thrown on me and my horses injured at rodeos because of this kind of stupid propaganda crap by protesters. They take one situation or a little bit of truth about one thing and make the gospel out of it and that is just plain not right. I see you are from New York and no there aren't many ranches out there so you probably don't know what I am talking about and that is ok. But when you've been on the other end of these wackos ways it's not too pleasant. You have blood and animal parts thrown on you, your truck and trailer trashed, your animals stolen, your wife and kids called filthy names, and then tell me again how I don't know what the whole story is.]]

Actually this explains your defensivness which is most definately justified. This is exactly what I was referring to when saying that these animal rights people get way to carried away and dont' like to hear about people like you being subjected to this. I sure am not slamming you here and hope that I've explained myself to some extent.

Darin

ERNIEB · Jul 25, 2001

I can't speak for all animal raisers, but I think I can speak for cattle ranchers since I've known some all my life.
A rancher who neglects or abuses his cattle is not going to be in buisness very long. It just is not profitable. Without going into detail, it's true of a cow/calf operation, stockers, or feedlot.
Cattlemen are as human as anyone else, they sometimes miscalculate, use poor judgement or just make a mistake. I know of several small ranchers who have a certain number of cows that are not much more than a leather bag of bones. They produce no calfs. The truth is these are very, very old cows that the rancher has gotten so attached to, that he can't bring himself to take them to auction.
I have a few cows myself, and two of them are real pets. We raised them on bottles, and they are almost part of the family. They are only 5 years old now, but the day will come when I will have to make the same decision. It is not something I look forward to.
It really makes me angry when these animal rights people seize on this to fan emotional flames, they're main goal being to increase donations. To be honest, I've heard so much innuendo, half truths, and outright lies from these groups. I wouldn't believe them if they said day was light, and night was dark.

Ernie

PBMAX · Jul 25, 2001

The thing that kills me is that in this country if you have a group show a few picture on the news or in a magazine and get some well known(or famous) person(s).To spout info about things they probable haven't seen 1st hand they get people all ramped up.With little or no evidence.Don't get me wrong if some one is suspected of animal cruelty they should be looked into by the proper authoritys.The people that can do the job and get it done right.If they do find it.then they should be delt with to the full extent of the law.

On a lighter note.Having been in the Nav I have traveld abit...The best steak I've eaten was in Brazil...They don't or didn't at the time feed their cows the way we do.Thiers were all graze fed...No steroids etc..Man says somethign for razing your own beef...

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21D

Anonymous Poster · Jul 25, 2001

if you have a group show a few picture on the news or in a magazine and get some well known(or famous) person(s) to spout info about things they probable haven't seen 1st hand...

kinda like Sissy Spasic (sic?) going before Congress to talk about a farm bill because she played a farm wife in a movie.

RichZ · Jul 25, 2001

Richard, thanks for posting that article. It clears up alot of the half truths that I was led to believe. I admit that when I started this post, I only had one side of this story, and I should have done some research before I called it a travesty. I apologize to all, because, as a trainned scientist, I am usually much more analytical. This is an emotional issue. I love animals, and horses are near the top of my list, so I was outraged when I learned about this. As Richard (Cowboydoc) has pointed out, it would make little sense to abuse the horses if your business depends on them.
My own problem with this whole thing is my personal bias of considering horses pets, and therefore off limits to being used for food. But as I said, that's my own personal bias, you can agree or disagree, there's no right or wrong there. If you feel like I do, then adopt one (or more) of the PMU foals if you are able to (That's what I'm in the process of doing.).
As I said this is an emotional issue from both ends. I understand why Richard is very defensive, because of his rodeo experiences, and my main regret in starting this whole post, is that it has caused much anxiety to Richard, who has been a very good advisor and friend to me as a neophyte horse owner. There is no one I have more respect for than Richard when it comes to horses (and of course orthropedics, and I used to be a health care inspector!). I hope he will continue to be my advisor and friend, if he's not too mad at me for starting this whole controversy.
The best outcome for this whole thing I can hope for is to stimulate some people to adopt some PMU foals (as Richard himself has done!!).

Rich