?? About octane for mowers and chain saw

[AxleHub]

Actually ethanol was not added for octane purposes. Back in 1990, the EPA required oxygenated fuels in certain parts of the country that didn't meet clean air requirements. The oxygenated fuels burned cleaner with less emissions. The gas suppliers met this by adding MBTE to the fuel. Many probably remember those stickers on the gas pumps. In the mid 90's MBTE was found to be contaminating the ground water in many locations and was eventually banned. The MBTE was replaced with ethanol which happened to improve the octane, but also contains less energy then gas. Just an FYI

I thought ethanol started in Iowa during the oil embargo as a method of powering or extending fuel supplies. and became a national thing in or around the time that Reagan started a process or rebuilding and obtain every good bad or broken drilling rig in the country to drill for oil as a national security effort in the early 1980s. As I recall the MBTE was added to fuel in special mixture zones like Los Angeles and Chicago Milwaukee etc.. MBTE's demise was significant cost increases for those special fuels and a shortage of supply of them as the pipeline companies had to run a batch thru the line then mmediately run scrubbers thru the line each time before running normal fuel mixtures thru the same pipeline. As I recall the cost was so high that they then nationalized the ethanol process that had going on for already a decade almost.

 

[MossRoad]

You wrote:
I guess the reason I haven't had fuel related issues in anything in 30+ years of using nothing but E10 fuel is because I've followed good practices from the manufacturers, used sealed gas cans, only mix a gallon of 2-stroke fuel at a time, and rotate out my stored fuel a couple times per year. The only thing I use Stabil in is my generator... and I'm thinking about running that dry from now on. But its 22+ years old and starts and runs fine, so why change a good thing.

I guess you interpreted that as me buying gas in sealed cans. I don't. I buy from the pump at the grocery store, and pump it into good old 30 year old plastic Blitz gas cans with snap lids that seal tight. No air infiltration. No moisture issues. I fill three 6 gallon cans at a time. And sometimes an extra 2-gallon can if I'm gonna be sawing soon. I only mix a gallon of 2-stroke mix at a time, because my mixing can is 1 gallon size. It's easier to measure that way. Plus, I rarely use a gallon of 2-stroke mix in a day. That's 10 tanks in my chainsaw. That's a long day. My fuel gets rotated out through usage. I rotate my peaches in the pantry, too. I do use stabil in the generator. I think most people with gas generators that sit for months at a time do, too.

 

[MossRoad]

Now we are getting somewhere :drink:

I've always been there. It's bad business and a waste of BTUs. With that said, it's here, it works, it's cheap, and I've had no problems using it with no special adaptations to my routines. The folks that chase around E0, and/or use higher octane fuels when it's not required are the ones doing the dancing, not me.
:cool2:

 

[Redlands Okie]

Loony Gas, or leaded gasoline as we call it.

Way back when gasoline engines were starting out various products were used to help reduce knock and to enhance octane. Both of which are interrelated.

Alcohol was tested and found to work fine. But lead also worked fine and was much cheaper. No problem that researchers and people handling it in the plants were dying from it in short order on the job. So lead it was. Then due to lead and health issues getting more public exposure MTBE was used since it was then product with the best function and price package. Problems arose from its use and now we are using alcohol.

This information is widely available but here is one link.

Looney Gas and Lead Poisoning: A Short, Sad History | WIRED

 

[buickanddeere]

And the sky is blue.

It's a non-issue in modern cars. And a non-issue in small engines designed to run on E10 87 octane fuel.

We are discussing small engines that lack electronic feedback to control the air fuel mixture and timing . Even IF the small engine was 電esigned for E10 or E15. That engine is more prone to detonation or knock when using 87 octane E10 vs 87 octane gasoline .
Then there are the small engines that were never designed for E10 and have fuel system compoents deteriate due to the corrosive charactistics of alcohol mixed with water .

 

[buickanddeere]

In modern cars with anti-knock sensors and computers, it's almost a non-issue. The computer can adjust the timing on the fly to compensate. If you put in what the manufacturer recommends, its a non-issue.

As for small engines, I've never had to change the timing on any stock engine, ever. Old cars with points? Yes. Putting the distributor back in the corrrect place on my 93 Suburban? Yes. My Yamaha RD400 two-stroke twin drag bike with many stupid crazy mods? YES! My Poulan chainsaw? NO! My Craftsman chainsaw? NO! Weed eater? Snowblower? Tiller? Pressure washer? Log splitter? NO NO NO. hahahaa !!! E10 of any octane rating is a non-issue if you use gasoline that is rated at the octane level specified by the manufacturer.

Retarding timing may reduce knock at the cost of thermal efficiency , mileage and the tendency for the engine to operate hotter . Detonation in the other hand is mute point regarding the ignition timing . As detonation is auto ignition of the air fuel mixture without exposure to the ignition spark.
Don稚 be mixing up knock/ping and detonation.

 

[MossRoad]

The engine isn't prone to detonation because you're using the fuel it was designed for. It's prone to detination because of bad timing, too high compression, too lean of a mixture, improper engine cooling, etc... all of which are causes of the problem, not the fuel. If you tuned the engine back to factory specs, made sure the correct spark plug was installed, made sure the cooling passages around the engine are clear, etc... you'd have no problem running the engine on the fuel it was designed to run on.

99 times our of 100, the owner messes with the carb, changes the settings, puts in the wrong plug with the wrong gap, wrong fuel, too much oil in the gas mix on two-strokes, plugged air passages around the engine, etc... it's user induced problems, not the use of the recommended fuel.

And we're talking about smal engines, automobiles, tractors, anything that runs of gas and E10.

 

[John_Mc]

I hate to say it, but if all of your equipment that you maintain runs poorly or not at all on E10, it's probably not the E10 that's the problem. It's you.

yeah. In all of the cars I've owned, I can tell the difference in gas mileage (the worst was a little over a 10% drop in MPG, the best was maybe 5% drop), but they all ran fine. I avoid it in my small engines, but the only one I had that really seemed to have trouble running on it was a 22HP Kohler in an old Craftsman Garden Tractor.

 

[SirMaxwell]

MossRoad

The only reason I came back to life in these forums was due to the general high standards of discussion and general community dislike of trolls. Please don't ruin yet another board.

There is no reason why you should malign my character nor abilities. Please take your paid shill attitude elsewhere.

Just because you may not like the facts, doesn't make them any less factual.

I told you my story, I told you the truth. Its a turth that can be proven over and over. That's that sir.

 

[AxleHub]

One of the things to understand about the engines we use - whether 2 cycle or 4 cycle - whether computer controlled or not - whether small engine or auto - is that engines and their components are not "designed" to run E10 or E12 or E85 - they are merely built to "withstand" the problems of putting alcohol into a petroleum based fuel engine and its many components and fuel delivery parts. That's a very large difference. Its much like parents feeding a child home made food, versus feeding that child a steady diet of fast food and snacks. Either way the child may "survive" on those diets - but withstanding problems is not "designed for it" thinking - its survival - not always pleasant and certainly not efficient.

As an example my truck is considered a "flex fuel" engine. Many people have them. Flex fuel doesn't mean the metal is different - it means the computer alters engine actions greatly depending on the type of fuel its given - E0, E10, E12, or E85 and the various octane ratings. And it means they use some different types of hose materials, eliminate any plastic parts (because alcohol ages plastics and several types of rubber and vinylized rubber etc. etc.. Sadly people think that because a flex fuel engine can "tolerate" alcohol - it means a flex fuel engine "runs well" on any of those fuels. That is not what manufacturers claim - it means the engines "survive" the use of each of those choices. I have never put E85 or E12 in my truck - because I want that vehicle to thrive and not have maintenance problems and not have performance issues (but again - survival doesn't mean it doesn't age the engines more). If I have the choice - I do not put E10 in my truck without some form of additive protection if possible. And I certainly choose good quality E0 if and when it is available.

But that is no different than also choosing good fuel supply locations rather than ones that have a history of "problem fuel storage" etc.. And small engines are much like the same parenting example above - except it relates to young and small children being fed exclusively a diet of home made food versus exclusively given fast food and snacks with no regards to nutrition. Small engines and small children both need more attention to their fueling as their systems are even more sensitive.

Ask any engineer that is involved in small engines - if their small engine will run better AND Last LONGER with E0 87 octane or E10 89 octane and see what they will tell you - I know what several have told me.