AC Condensing Units

[Sigarms]

As far as buying off the net without warranty. I wouldn't worry about it much, as long as you can buy parts from a wholesaler in your area and perform the work.

If you get the system dry (deep vacuum), purge with nitrogen when brazing the line set, Keeping critical areas cool while brazing, you shouldn't have any major issues.

Heck, I have installed units one week and the condenser fan motor go out the next week. These were GE motors.
It wasn't an install issue, just a mechanical failure of the motor. Mechanical things fail. it's just the way it is

I didn't realize the OP lived in Washington state, on a Peninsula outside of Seattle of all places. I've worked From Massachusetts down to Alamaba in HVAC, and I've done training with guys from Seattle on the business side. Let's just say that California and Washington state seem to be a world in all their own when it comes to the HVAC industry, particularly on price. I tried to help a local NC licensed contractor out who was going to do a job for his daughter in Spokane, and I feel over dead on the shipping costs alone.

Keep in mind, it's because of California that manufacturers no longer manufacture a PSE motor gas furnace, and I haven't met a HVAC manufacturer yet who doesn't bite their tongue when they speak of California. Have no doubt that California played a part in discontinuing R410A (back around 2009, go figure).

As Utrarunner stated, he's found AC costly in Washington State. I can believe him.

Tractor Seebea, I shot you a PM.

 

[Sigarms]

The issue with a "dedicated" 16 SEER outdoor unit (split system) is the 2 year old indoor coil may not have the volume area to work properly with the outdoor unit to actually get the SEER rating you think your paying for. At this point, when mix / matching split systems, throw SEER out the window, so... you might as well go cheap as possible.

See attached. Dropping down to a XC-1636 2 stage AC in a Lennox outdoor unit, with a CR33-30/36 coil, the best you're going to get is 15 SEER.



5 questions which don't really help you, but curious on my end (which may give you options with the installing contractor)...

1 - Why a 80% variable speed two stage gas furnace in dedicated down flow application? Generally speaking, in NC, an 80% gas furnaces are used in attics because contractors don't want to deal with potential water issues during winter time using a condensing 90 plus furnace OR it's dedicated down flow positioned in a closet where you don't have room for a flue off to either side OR it's a price issue for a condo and cheap is best.

2 - Exactly what SEER rating was the contractor trying to sell you with a 3 ton XP20 outdoor HP unit using a CR33-30/36 coil? I ask because I don't see a system match using that coil with a 3 ton XP20 HP. That would make sense to me because the coil starts off rated as a base 14 SEER, and generally speaking with all manufacturers, the higher the SEER, the more coil surface area you will need, generally in the indoor coil, where you have to "up size" to a large indoor coil to get the higher SEER.

3 - Assuming since the original plan was a fully modulating heat pump, are you currently using an iComfort t-stat on the wall with your current SL280DF gas furnace?

4 - How long ago was the gas furnace installed?

5 - Is the ductwork all new with the gas furnace, or was it already there? (you mentioned you'd prefer a 2 ton but the contractor went with a 3 ton and I'm assuming the contractor did the load calulations and gave you a copy for your records).

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I didn't realize the OP lived in Washington state, on a Peninsula outside of Seattle of all places. I've worked From Massachusetts down to Alamaba in HVAC, and I've done training with guys from Seattle on the business side. Let's just say that California and Washington state seem to be a world in all their own when it comes to the HVAC industry, particularly on price. I tried to help a local NC licensed contractor out who was going to do a job for his daughter in Spokane, and I feel over dead on the shipping costs alone.

Keep in mind, it's because of California that manufacturers no longer manufacture a PSE motor gas furnace, and I haven't met a HVAC manufacturer yet who doesn't bite their tongue when they speak of California. Have no doubt that California played a part in discontinuing R410A (back around 2009, go figure).

As Utrarunner stated, he's found AC costly in Washington State. I can believe him.

Tractor Seebea, I shot you a PM.

The residential HVAC contractors are predominately non-union. They pay their technicians in the $30/hr range and always use a helper (much lower payroll cost) instead of 2 techs on a job. They charge $100+/HR to the customer. A lot of techs work as independent contractors paid on piece work so overtime is unheard of. They work techs long hours and knock them off when they reach 40 hours to do overtime work at straight time wages. Most techs on the heating side are not refrigeration techs. There is a drastic shortage of tradesmen here in the NW. HVAC techs are a bigger problem as heating service calls override cooling calls by a big percentage.

I personally think there is deliberate gouging going on taking advantage of the above mentioned factors. The independent contractor scheme is very prominent in all residential construction trades (all non-union) and my opinion is a direct violation of the federal labor laws. Sad state of affairs.

Again the refrigerant/environment bally hoo is all about making money off it not the science. R410a is a target due to its minor component of chlorine.

Sigarms, I will get back on your PM shortly.

Ron

 

[CADplans]

.

I personally think there is deliberate gouging going on taking advantage of the above mentioned factors.
Sad state of affairs.

Of course there is gouging,, have you ever heard of Jeff Bezos?

Jeff Bezos - Google Search

That is the American way,, somebody has to pay for those pretty service trucks,,, :thumbsup:

 

[Tractor Seabee]

See attached. Dropping down to a XC-1636 2 stage AC in a Lennox outdoor unit, with a CR33-30/36 coil, the best you're going to get is 15 SEER.

View attachment 634173

5 questions which don't really help you, but curious on my end (which may give you options with the installing contractor)...

1 - Why a 80% variable speed two stage gas furnace in dedicated down flow application? Generally speaking, in NC, an 80% gas furnaces are used in attics because contractors don't want to deal with potential water issues during winter time using a condensing 90 plus furnace OR it's dedicated down flow positioned in a closet where you don't have room for a flue off to either side OR it's a price issue for a condo and cheap is best.

2 - Exactly what SEER rating was the contractor trying to sell you with a 3 ton XP20 outdoor HP unit using a CR33-30/36 coil? I ask because I don't see a system match using that coil with a 3 ton XP20 HP. That would make sense to me because the coil starts off rated as a base 14 SEER, and generally speaking with all manufacturers, the higher the SEER, the more coil surface area you will need, generally in the indoor coil, where you have to "up size" to a large indoor coil to get the higher SEER.

3 - Assuming since the original plan was a fully modulating heat pump, are you currently using an iComfort t-stat on the wall with your current SL280DF gas furnace?

4 - How long ago was the gas furnace installed?

5 - Is the ductwork all new with the gas furnace, or was it already there? (you mentioned you'd prefer a 2 ton but the contractor went with a 3 ton and I'm assuming the contractor did the load calulations and gave you a copy for your records).

Addressing by question #

1- The furnace is a condensing type in the 90+% efficiency. It was originally provided due to adding a future heat pump, which I am no longer going to do. The furnace is extremely cheap to operate, actually much cheaper than the power to operate a heat pump. Natural gas up here is the go to energy source. The furnace is in the garage of a single story building, down flow with ducts in the crawl space. Slab on grade is unheard of here.

2- 14-16 SEER depending on weather variations. Example snapshot in time today: Outdoor, temp 40F, humidity 96%; Indoor temp 71F, humidity 31%. Last thing we need is removing more water with a colder evaporator. In fact we could use a humidifier year-round to have better comfort. The 3 ton coil with a 2 ton compressor would help that situation. For no more use of the AC than we need here in the NW any SEER above 14 is a +. It is a comfort thing, not must do like in your area.

3- Yes on the thermostat

4- 3 years ago

5- Existing ducts. I need to evaluate that relative to the now AC application. Definitely need to increase the insulation of the ducts for both the heating and cooling cycle. Heating cost would come down some more. Ducts were installed almost 30 years ago. The estimator never got back to me on the calcs and I was too busy at the time to follow up.

I have had them doing routine maintenance service but am getting dissatisfied. At 84, I avoid crawling around in the crawl space so, need to hire out some work. Even finding good labor help around here is futile. It is the old thing; I know how but can't do it anymore.

I am in the planning stage and need to address items as funds crop up. Early on (this year) duct insulation and adding an outlet in the kitchen. For some reason the original install omitted that room.

Thanks again for all the good advice, Ron

 

[Tractor Seabee]

It depends on where you work, we still have a few evaporators that have surge drums at work, most of our units use pumped liquid (overfed) to flood the units instead.
As for Babbitt bearings, the closest we have come to that was re-pouring the lead seat in a valve. The only compressors that might have Babbitt bearings haven't needed them in recent history.

Aaron Z

Aaron, apparently you work as a operating engineer for a cold storage (or similar) plant. I am sure there are still a lot of the old stuff still operating and the operators are knowledgeable in those systems. Just that the average tech out there has never been schooled on them or even seen them. Before I left the trade we were beginning to up grade ammonia plants to rotary type compressors and liquid pumps. I even worked on 3 stage compression plants for freeze applications. Industrial plants are a distinct separate part of the trade now. It was getting that way 50 years ago. Installers are pipefitters and welders that have no clue as to why they are doing what the plans call for. We techs first seen the plant when ready to start-up. We got to see and fix all the mistakes the installers left behind. We had to be welders, pipefitters, machinists, machinery repairmen, millwrights, and electricians along with our refrigeration theory and practice which set us apart.

Ron

 

[Sigarms]

The new furnace is a SL280DF.

Ron

The Lennox SL280DF is a 80% variable speed 2 stage, not 95%-98% AFUE.

SLP98DF is 97% AFUE variable capacity, which I assume Lennox means modulating.
EL296DF***XV is 96% AFUE variable speed two stage

The above two furnaces would use the iComfort communicating t-stat.

The EL296DF***XE looks to be a two stage X-13 (ECM) blower motor which does not use the iComfort t-stat.

I only mentioned the t-stat because from what I've read so far, unless the contractor spelled out exactly what YOU wanted, and YOU wouldn't take no as an answer from him, I don't think he gave you all your options per price point at the time of sale and how this could play out if you change your mind. I have no qualms selling a homeowner what THEY want, but if it were to go agasint my professional opinion on what needs to be done for the best interest (IMO) of the homeowner, I'd note it on the contract as a CYA. People tend to forget what they said a couple of years ago, but it it's initialed at the time of sale, it's documented.

From what I've read so far, not certain why he just didn't sell you the high end gas furnace by itself less high t-stat with the option of either dual fueling or going straight AC when you decide to do it. You probably wasted at leasat a couple of grand on the coil and t-stat alone when you really didn't need to at that moment in time (added the fact that it's a given that the homeowner can change their mind "years" down the road and you don't want to put yourself into a corner).

 

[aczlan]

Aaron, apparently you work as a operating engineer for a cold storage (or similar) plant. I am sure there are still a lot of the old stuff still operating and the operators are knowledgeable in those systems. Just that the average tech out there has never been schooled on them or even seen them. Before I left the trade we were beginning to up grade ammonia plants to rotary type compressors and liquid pumps. I even worked on 3 stage compression plants for freeze applications. Industrial plants are a distinct separate part of the trade now. It was getting that way 50 years ago. Installers are pipefitters and welders that have no clue as to why they are doing what the plans call for. We techs first seen the plant when ready to start-up. We got to see and fix all the mistakes the installers left behind. We had to be welders, pipefitters, machinists, machinery repairmen, millwrights, and electricians along with our refrigeration theory and practice which set us apart.

Ron

That seems to match with a lot of what I have seen.
There is current training for those systems, I know a fair number of people who've gone through the RETA Industrial Refrigeration Course 1 and Course 2, those cover most of the basics of the industrial refrigeration systems for various kinds of refrigerant, but focuses on Ammonia (as the principles are mostly the same whether you're working with Ammonia or Freon, but a lot of the reactions are easier to chart out with Ammonia than with Freon).

Most of the people going through the class were people who either work as plant operators or work as technicians doing industrial refrigeration repair (usually with systems like you would find at a large grocery store to keep the freezer and refrigerator rooms cold as the smallest systems that they would be working on).


Aaron Z

 

[Tractor Seabee]

That seems to match with a lot of what I have seen.
There is current training for those systems, I know a fair number of people who've gone through the RETA Industrial Refrigeration Course 1 and Course 2, those cover most of the basics of the industrial refrigeration systems for various kinds of refrigerant, but focuses on Ammonia (as the principles are mostly the same whether you're working with Ammonia or Freon, but a lot of the reactions are easier to chart out with Ammonia than with Freon).

Most of the people going through the class were people who either work as plant operators or work as technicians doing industrial refrigeration repair (usually with systems like you would find at a large grocery store to keep the freezer and refrigerator rooms cold as the smallest systems that they would be working on).


Aaron Z

I was a member of RETA for a number of years till I gave op refrigeration work. Good outfit, training courses were very good.

Ron