AC Condensing Units

[Tractor Seabee]

Questions for all you TBN HVAC contractors/installers:

i have a new Lennox high end gas furnace with a 3 ton DX coil installed 2 years ago. Could not afford the contractor install of the companion condensing unit.

I was a HVAC Technician in my younger days and have kept up somewhat but not familiar with current practices in the trade. I still have a complete set of tools and equipment including a 2 stage vacuum pump and electronic leak detector. Over the years I have bailed out neighbors, friends, and family from time to time. I still have my Class 1-Universal EPA 608 Certification for purchasing refrigerant.

I cannot get a contractor to sell me the condensing unit and let me install ready for start up. Install is the major part of the quotes I have received. I can understand their stance due to liability and warranty issues. I have been looking on the internet and found two brands I can buy on line, prices are attractive. They are Goodman and Ducane made by Lennox, both in 16 SEER. So Questions?

-Are there other brands available for direct sales you would sell/install?
-What are your opinions on Goodman and Ducane? Reviews look pretty good.
-Any way to do this and maintain warranty? Not too concerned if product is reliable to begin with. Willing to stand behind my work. I realize there is lemons in any product line.

I have figured out the control interfaces with the Lennox furnace and thermostat.

So help me out Guys and Gals.

Ron

 

[RNeumann]

If you were a contractor you should be able to find a local wholesaler who will sell to you.....what type of store did you buy parts from back in the day? Wholesalers have been around for a few years.

 

[Roadworthy]

I have a Goodman unit as an after market replacement on my system. They are pretty common and hold up well.

 

[Sigarms]

I'm just curious as to what your existing AC outdoor unit is, how old is it, and how did a license HVAC contractor match the new indoor coil to the older outdoor straight AC unit?

Warranty is going to be very tricky depending on who you talk to as Ducane is made in SC, HOWEVER it goes as the same brand name under as I believe its a line under the "merit" series, perhaps "Airflow". The issue is even with a Ducane outdoor unit, the system may not be AHRI rated.

Generally, I will always ask for both the indoor and outdoor serial number to ensure the system is supposed to "play nice" with each other. Generally speaking, it's a easy loophole for the manufacturer to use to get out of a 10 year warranty if the system is not rated.

 

[ray66v]

My uncle is a HCAC contractor.

Lennox, Armstrong, Ducane and Concord are all manufactured by Allied equipment.

With Ducane and Concord, being the less expensive versions of the higher end Armstrong and Lennox units.

I have two Concord furnaces, and they are both identical inside as far as the mechanical aspect, to the Armstrong equivalent. Both are great units. Quiet, and trouble free. Unlike my previous Carrier junk. :thumbdown:

The Armstrong units had a heavier gauge metal case, and slightly more sound deadening. Neither of which is being missed at all, after saving a lot of money with the lower end branding.

I have also not replaced my outdoor unit because it was not that old, at the time. When it goes, I will not hesitate to use the Concord, or Ducane brands to replace it.

You could try getting an account with a local HVAC supplier. I just walked in one day, and told the local guys I was a remodeling contractor, and wanted an account. Bingo, they signed me up.

The stores are all slow right now, and may be more receptive to dealing with a stranger than usual, to get some cash flow. All they are going to do is say no. So, you really don't have much to lose.

Be advised, if you are not an "authorized installer", warranty issues can require some finagling. If the store won't go to bat for you, you may have to suck up to an authorized guy to help you out. The guys at the store probably know a guy who can help you out.

I have my Uncle, if I have any warranty problems. Which is 10 years on the Concord, if you qualify.

Most problems are going to be right off the bat, and the store will take care of that. You can save more than enough money doing it yourself, to make it worth the risk.

 

[fried1765]

I have a Goodman unit as an after market replacement on my system. They are pretty common and hold up well.

We have a Goodman as a replacement, for original.... ???
In an earlier house we had a Trane.
That was as loud as a train.

 

[Sigarms]

My uncle is a HCAC contractor.

Lennox, Armstrong, Ducane and Concord are all manufactured by Allied equipment.

With Ducane and Concord, being the less expensive versions of the higher end Armstrong and Lennox units.

Allied Equipment is a subdivision of Lennox Industries.

Ironically enough, I actually toured Armstrong when they were made in Bellvue (sp?) Ohio and then shut the plant down after Lennox bought them out and they (Lennox International) had do deal with the union in Ohio.

Ducane use to be made in Blacksburg SC, then they combined with Armstrong whose facility is in Orangeburg SC (while their corp offices are in Columbia SC).

The cheap Lennox crap is made in Mexico. Ducane from what I remember still makes Airflow for Lennox.

I could be wrong, but currently the primary line Armsrtong still makes for Lennox is oil furnaces (Armstrong leads the US in oil furnace production at least in 2010.

Been a while since I've been to Lennox in the mid west and Armstrong in South Carolina, but Allied Equipment does not make the majority of Lennox equipment. That I know for a fact unless that has changed in the last 5-10 years.

Lennox has a much wider range of options. Armstrong is the red head step child in the same way Bryant is with Carrier to some extent,

 

[clemsonfor]

I have two Goodman 3.5 ton heat pumps. One is was lightly used for about 6 years. The other was our normal AC and been used since day one. Both were used as heat for about 2 to three seasons as a main heat source till I went to wood. Now they get almost zero use in the winter as heat pumps. These were both package units and 13 seer. On them I have replaced the fan start capacitor (maybe 6 years in) on the lesser used one and on the main one I have replaced the start run capacitor and the main contactor ( both this last summer). I did that work myself.

I have had both now 11 years.

For the price of the Goodman's I will buy and install another one when these units go. Not that I want that to happen but when it does I will.

 

[jaxs]

Goodman has been around for many years and I haven't seen or heard anything bad. I've installed 20 or 30 and serviced many others without noticing sub standard quality. Find an apartment house maintenance man that does hvac,buy him a six pack to buy unit from one of his suppliers. I wouldn't go to much effort or expense for the sake of warranty. If you were near DFW I'd buy it for you. Someone in your neighborhood will probly do the same.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Allied Equipment is a subdivision of Lennox Industries.

Ironically enough, I actually toured Armstrong when they were made in Bellvue (sp?) Ohio and then shut the plant down after Lennox bought them out and they (Lennox International) had do deal with the union in Ohio.

Ducane use to be made in Blacksburg SC, then they combined with Armstrong whose facility is in Orangeburg SC (while their corp offices are in Columbia SC).

The cheap Lennox crap is made in Mexico. Ducane from what I remember still makes Airflow for Lennox.

I could be wrong, but currently the primary line Armsrtong still makes for Lennox is oil furnaces (Armstrong leads the US in oil furnace production at least in 2010.

Been a while since I've been to Lennox in the mid west and Armstrong in South Carolina, but Allied Equipment does not make the majority of Lennox equipment. That I know for a fact unless that has changed in the last 5-10 years.

Lennox has a much wider range of options. Armstrong is the red head step child in the same way Bryant is with Carrier to some extent,

I just found out Lennox also makes the Blue Ridge line.

Ron

 

[Sigarms]

I just found out Lennox also makes the Blue Ridge line.

Ron

Never heard of them (Blue Ridge line). Looked online, can't find them as well. That said, could be a private lable they are making for someone. Trane just came out with their Run Tru (sp) and I have no clue what Trane will do with their "Ox" or "Oxman" newer cheapo line as well.


What is the actual model and serial of the indoor coil that was replaced 2 years ago?
I'm not as familiar with what Lennox industries does, but I do have their NC contractor price catalog for the last 5 years and I don't see a DX coil listed. Is is an actual lennox coil?
What is the model and serial of the outdoor unit?
Why did the contractor only replace the indoor coil 2 years ago?
I know you said you didn't have the coin to replace everything, but was the indoor coil actually leaking?

If the coil is actually only 2 years old, good chance it was manufactured to be rated with at least a 14 SEER outdoor unit. Worst case, doing it yourself, I'd go with a Goodman 14 SEER AC outdoor unit.

The issue with a "dedicated" 16 SEER outdoor unit (split system) is the 2 year old indoor coil may not have the volume area to work properly with the outdoor unit to actually get the SEER rating you think your paying for. At this point, when mix / matching split systems, throw SEER out the window, so... you might as well go cheap as possible.

If you do it yourself, also make certain you have a decent vacuum gauge.



This was on my own home, around 10 at night (250 microns).

Biggest mistake IMO guys make is getting lazy to is pulling a GOOD vacuum, ensuring the system is sealed, and using cheap silver solder for braze joints on the the copper fittings. System the gauge is hooked onto in the pic is an Armstrong heat pump system. In 12 years of operation, never had one part go bad on it. Have another Armstrong split duel fuel system, and in 15 years since it was installed, one bad capacitor on the heat pump and a variable speed motor in the gas furnace (let me tell you, even at a dealer cost, those variable speed motors are outrageously expensive).

My point about the lack of failures at my home is that the brand name doesn't have much to do with how good the unit is (all manufacuturers have issues here and there). What's more important is the quality of install. If YOU take pride in your work and feel confident that you know you'll do a good job, in all honesty, you'll probably put your own HVAC system in better than the average HVAC contractor would. That said, that's why GOOD HVAC contractors sometimes aren't the cheapest.

Forgot to add

Check indoor Metering device on coil (Piston / TXV) and know what if your keeping it or changing it depending on what outdoor unit you get.

Also, do yourself a favor and also check your static pressure along with air flow (per the furnace table guide that should be in the instruction manual with the gas furnace). Service techs always want to break out their gauges to check the systems superheat and subcool before even look at or adjust airflow, which is a huge mistake IMO.

 

[ultrarunner]

I've bought HVAC through Grainger and no issues...

Also, the local supply houses will set just about anyone up with a refrigerant card.

All of the above is California based.

In Washington I found A/C costly... not all that many providers in the Olympia area and not many options...

I went with Rheem based on the Dealer... it has not been trouble free and the install cost almost 14k... but the dealer has quickly taken care of any issues with simply a phone call from 800 miles away... which is what I need being long distance.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Never heard of them (Blue Ridge line). Looked online, can't find them as well. That said, could be a private lable they are making for someone. Trane just came out with their Run Tru (sp) and I have no clue what Trane will do with their "Ox" or "Oxman" newer cheapo line as well.


What is the actual model and serial of the indoor coil that was replaced 2 years ago?
I'm not as familiar with what Lennox industries does, but I do have their NC contractor price catalog for the last 5 years and I don't see a DX coil listed. Is is an actual lennox coil?
What is the model and serial of the outdoor unit?
Why did the contractor only replace the indoor coil 2 years ago?
I know you said you didn't have the coin to replace everything, but was the indoor coil actually leaking?

If the coil is actually only 2 years old, good chance it was manufactured to be rated with at least a 14 SEER outdoor unit. Worst case, doing it yourself, I'd go with a Goodman 14 SEER AC outdoor unit.

The issue with a "dedicated" 16 SEER outdoor unit (split system) is the 2 year old indoor coil may not have the volume area to work properly with the outdoor unit to actually get the SEER rating you think your paying for. At this point, when mix / matching split systems, throw SEER out the window, so... you might as well go cheap as possible.

If you do it yourself, also make certain you have a decent vacuum gauge.

View attachment 634086

This was on my own home, around 10 at night (250 microns).

Biggest mistake IMO guys make is getting lazy to is pulling a GOOD vacuum, ensuring the system is sealed, and using cheap silver solder for braze joints on the the copper fittings. System the gauge is hooked onto in the pic is an Armstrong heat pump system. In 12 years of operation, never had one part go bad on it. Have another Armstrong split duel fuel system, and in 15 years since it was installed, one bad capacitor on the heat pump and a variable speed motor in the gas furnace (let me tell you, even at a dealer cost, those variable speed motors are outrageously expensive).

My point about the lack of failures at my home is that the brand name doesn't have much to do with how good the unit is (all manufacuturers have issues here and there). What's more important is the quality of install. If YOU take pride in your work and feel confident that you know you'll do a good job, in all honesty, you'll probably put your own HVAC system in better than the average HVAC contractor would. That said, that's why GOOD HVAC contractors sometimes aren't the cheapest.

Forgot to add

Check indoor Metering device on coil (Piston / TXV) and know what if your keeping it or changing it depending on what outdoor unit you get.

Also, do yourself a favor and also check your static pressure along with air flow (per the furnace table guide that should be in the instruction manual with the gas furnace). Service techs always want to break out their gauges to check the systems superheat and subcool before even look at or adjust airflow, which is a huge mistake IMO.

SIGARMS, Thanks for the response, good information. I guess I was not that clear. I had an old, burned out firebox, furnace replaced with a Lennox by the only contractor in the area. No AC with it. Went with the contractor as we were in the throes of moving in. Normally I would have done it myself. The new furnace is a SL280DF. The DX coil that came with the furnace is a Lennox CR33 30/36B. It is the mate for a Lennox XP20-036-230 16 SEER 3 ton heat pump. Originally we thought heat pump but have decided to stay with the gas furnace for heat. I will probably have to mod the coil for a TXV with a new 2 ton AC condensing unit. I figurenthe 3 ton coil will help maintain the 16 SEER syetem. The 3 ton was to get enough heating capacity. I have checked with the two HVAC supply houses here in the area. In addition to the EPA cert they want to see a HVAC contractor's license.

The lower end brands made by the big names are especially for the DIY market, but all caveat that a licensed HVAC contractor has to be engaged to check and start up to get warranty coverage. That will be a hurdle to cover also or forget it. I will save enough to take the risk. The Lennox dealer wanted $9K to furnish and install the heat pump. I will get a quote from them now to provide just an AC condensing unit. I was not all the pleased with the workmanship on the furnace either, and they are the most expensive in the area. I also realize the home market for HVAC is not the quality you see in commercial/industrial market which was my trade background.

Talking about the vacuum pump process; I would not rely on the drier to pick up any residual moisture so will leave the pump on at least overnight. I will have to buy the 25# CYLINDER OF R410 which is no problem with my EPA cert. $100 worth I will need very little of. Should be able to sell it after completion for most of the cost.

Thanks again, Ron

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I've bought HVAC through Grainger and no issues...

Also, the local supply houses will set just about anyone up with a refrigerant card.

All of the above is California based.

In Washington I found A/C costly... not all that many providers in the Olympia area and not many options...

I went with Rheem based on the Dealer... it has not been trouble free and the install cost almost 14k... but the dealer has quickly taken care of any issues with simply a phone call from 800 miles away... which is what I need being long distance.

HVAC is one area up here where the suppliers are not friendly to the DIY crowd.

Do you have an EPA cert? I still have mine from when I worked at the trade.

What kind of problems did you have with the Rheem unit? Do their suppliers sell to DIYs?

Ron

 

[Sigarms]

Talking about the vacuum pump process; I would not rely on the drier to pick up any residual moisture so will leave the pump on at least overnight. I will have to buy the 25# CYLINDER OF R410 which is no problem with my EPA cert. $100 worth I will need very little of. Should be able to sell it after completion for most of the cost.

Thanks again, Ron

SAVE that R410A if you buy a 25lb jug of it. The year 2023 manufuacturers are discontinuing product that uses R410A. The juice will still be around, but it will go like R22 on pricing.

I do have to ask, why in God's earth did you go with a coil to be matched with an XP20 outdoor unit? That's a full mod compressor 20 SEER unit.

AHRI is really slow tonight, didn't get to look at any ratings, but it seems the CR coil is downflow (never mind, I'm an idiot, the SL280DF is downflow LOL), and being it was intended to go with a 20 SEER HP, you should be fine with volume area on any 3 ton outdoor unit. Just make sure you have some reducer couplings. That 3 ton lennox coil looks to be 3/8 liquid 7/8 suction and I believe a lot of the 3 ton outdoor units are 3/8x/34. I can assure you, having to run an hour round trip for $1 fitting can get pretty aggravating, particularly if you don't dare ask your wife to run for you

 

[Sigarms]

HVAC is one area up here where the suppliers are not friendly to the DIY crowd.

The reality is when you sell to the general public, you really have NO CLUE what kind of clown you can end up dealing with. I can assure you, there are "professionals" who have licenses who are clowns, so what do you think you can get dealing with the general public and you have no clue what you're going to get? LOL In general, and in all sincereity, the potential headache isn't worth it. HVAC systems aren't "plug and play".

That said, if you'd pull a proper vacuum and ensure the system is sealed, you're already doing it better than 30% of the licensed professionals out there IMO.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

SAVE that R410A if you buy a 25lb jug of it. The year 2023 manufuacturers are discontinuing product that uses R410A. The juice will still be around, but it will go like R22 on pricing.

I do have to ask, why in God's earth did you go with a coil to be matched with an XP20 outdoor unit? That's a full mod compressor 20 SEER unit.

AHRI is really slow tonight, didn't get to look at any ratings, but it seems the CR coil is downflow (never mind, I'm an idiot, the SL280DF is downflow LOL), and being it was intended to go with a 20 SEER HP, you should be fine with volume area on any 3 ton outdoor unit. Just make sure you have some reducer couplings. That 3 ton lennox coil looks to be 3/8 liquid 7/8 suction and I believe a lot of the 3 ton outdoor units are 3/8x/34. I can assure you, having to run an hour round trip for $1 fitting can get pretty aggravating, particularly if you don't dare ask your wife to run for you

At the time of quotes the variable speed compressor seemed a good match for the heat pump application for this climate here. Wide changes in heating loads. Short cycling has always been a bugaboo of mine having worked service here in the NW. Amazing how many systems you service that are grossly over sized and the complaints short cycling generates. Hard to sell the customer on a smaller compressor when they just opened their pocketbook for a new system. Hermetic compressors really do like liquid in the crankcase. I understand the new rotaries are more tolerant, still good to keep the oil were it belongs.

When I was getting quotes we were in a hurry moving into a new (to us) house with a defunct furnace and it still being winter weather. Surprised the seller did not CO his family. i tried to get him to pay for the furnace, his reaction "it works, take it or leave it". We wanted the house as it was a sellers market and not much on the market.

You are right on the line sizes. Going with the 2 ton as I would rather have a unit that runs longer. We are not fans of keeping summer temps at 70, 76 is just fine.

Ron

 

[Tractor Seabee]

The reality is when you sell to the general public, you really have NO CLUE what kind of clown you can end up dealing with. I can assure you, there are "professionals" who have licenses who are clowns, so what do you think you can get dealing with the general public and you have no clue what you're going to get? LOL In general, and in all sincereity, the potential headache isn't worth it. HVAC systems aren't "plug and play".

That said, if you'd pull a proper vacuum and ensure the system is sealed, you're already doing it better than 30% of the licensed professionals out there IMO.

I agree with your analysis. The DIY fan club over reaches their capabilities on highly technical systems. Think back at the posts here on TBN, we have a lot wannabe refrigeration techs that don't have a clue how the systems work. Just their terminology gives them away.

I assume from your posts that your are in the business. Sometimes I look back with nostalgia but then I have had an exciting career by getting into general construction project management. The mandatory college movement finally moved me out so I went into my own consulting firm for 10 years before hanging it all up for good. Not many of us old timers left that could overhaul an ammonia compressor and hand fit the babbit bearings. Talk flooded evaporators today with low side receivers you get blind stares.

Ron

 

[aczlan]

I agree with your analysis. The DIY fan club over reaches their capabilities on highly technical systems. Think back at the posts here on TBN, we have a lot wannabe refrigeration techs that don't have a clue how the systems work. Just their terminology gives them away.

I assume from your posts that your are in the business. Sometimes I look back with nostalgia but then I have had an exciting career by getting into general construction project management. The mandatory college movement finally moved me out so I went into my own consulting firm for 10 years before hanging it all up for good. Not many of us old timers left that could overhaul an ammonia compressor and hand fit the babbit bearings. Talk flooded evaporators today with low side receivers you get blind stares.

Ron

It depends on where you work, we still have a few evaporators that have surge drums at work, most of our units use pumped liquid (overfed) to flood the units instead.
As for Babbitt bearings, the closest we have come to that was re-pouring the lead seat in a valve. The only compressors that might have Babbitt bearings haven't needed them in recent history.

Aaron Z

 

[kenmac]

As far as buying off the net without warranty. I wouldn't worry about it much, as long as you can buy parts from a wholesaler in your area and perform the work.

If you get the system dry (deep vacuum), purge with nitrogen when brazing the line set, Keeping critical areas cool while brazing, you shouldn't have any major issues.

Heck, I have installed units one week and the condenser fan motor go out the next week. These were GE motors.
It wasn't an install issue, just a mechanical failure of the motor. Mechanical things fail. it's just the way it is