AC question

   / AC question #21  
As a dealer of commercial refrigeration units I can tell you that propane is used and is getting more popular. It will not be long and you will be hard pressed to find a commercial unit that is not propane.

The only issue I have seen so far is the misunderstanding of propane scares most technicians and they refuse to deal with it. The answer is becoming none field service units. Something goes wrong and the guts of the unit slides out and is replaced with a new charged unit. It's a plug and play that anyone can do without a refrigeration license. But of course I have to maintain a license to sell commercial refrigeration units.
 
   / AC question #22  
Here's more info on TXV block valves. Keep us posted, Cougsfan.

Regarding ammonia, recall that liquid anhydrous ammonia is dumped all over farm fields as fertilizer with no mass casualties.

Regarding propane, recall that commercial propane is used for heating all over rural lands, with only the occasional mass casualty. It is transported by road, rail, pipeline, sea, and even air.

Both must be in the millions of tons per year, handled routinely and, for the most part, safely.

View attachment Refrigeration TXV valves.pdf
 
   / AC question #23  
Those "block valves" are shown on page 194 and 195 as keys 5&6. they are called "Q/C 7/8" and Q/C 5/8" and do have a Branson part number. They could indeed be just bulkhead fittings and they have a bad translator. It is funny that the parts diagram doesn't show the expansion valve or the dryer receiver, yet I can buy them if I call the dealer. And my tractor definitely isn't exactly the same as all the things they show.

Bad translation should be Branson Tractor's middle name as far as the manuals go lol. Expansion valve, blower motors, resistors, and etc. have never been shown separate from the entire HVAC unit ever since the 6530 up until all present cab models but they did finally start carrying them about 2 years after they released the 6530. Just never illustrated in the parts manuals. On the dryer, I wonder if there wasn't an undocumented running change to having it built into the condenser. Does the condenser happen to be bigger on one side with plastic caps on top and bottom of the bigger side? Jaxs would be very surprised how easy it is to become a certified Mobile HVAC Technician. Literally an open book test. The hardest part is pulling the $25 out of your pocket.
 
   / AC question #24  
I don't think ammonia or propane is allowed as a refrigerant in homes or autos. you take a sleeping pill, or get drunk enough, in a house, you might not wake up in enough time to escape. also, in a car accident you may be trapped in there for too long.. except for ammonia refrigerators in mobile homes, those have VERY thick piping, and usually don't get compromised in an accident..

Ammonia is not allowed as a direct refrigerant for occupied space (unless the charge is less than x% of the room's volume? Can be used with that restriction in a plant (such as a ice cream production line), but not to directly cool air for an office ).
Ammonia be used as a secondary refrigerant though (ie: use CO2 in your commercial warehouse freezer, then use ammonia to cool the CO2 instead of using a air heat exchanger, or use ammonia to cool glycol or brine and use that to cool your ice rink)
Propane is common in new fridges, but IIRC the charge has to be under a certain weight.

No doubt finding leaks with ammonia is a piece of cake compared to other refrigerants. You'd have to do something incredibly stupid to get poisoned by it. Ammonia can be a significant skin irritant, and under ideal conditions it can be explosive too. Under normal circumstances you'd be hard pressed to make it burn. But there was an instance several years ago where a processing plant blew up and several people killed due to an ammonia leak teamed with stupidity which had lasting repercussions throughout industry . But all things considered, it is a very desirable refrigerant in many applications for a lot of good reasons. Imagine having an ammonia leak in a automobile though! Call the lawyers!
Nearly all refrigerants have some sort of drawback. Water is probably the only really safe one I know of. But the condensing and evaporating temperatures and pressures of water make it impractical for cooling systems (exception: swamp coolers). Water actually does work, using the very similar thermodynamic principles as a refrigeration system, but at a much higher temperature range. i.e. boilers & heat exchanger heating systems.
Good points. Water is used to cool lettuce and other leafy produce from what I understand. It is R718 IIRC.
Fill a container with lettuce trays, close the door, then pull a vacuum on the container and the water evaporating as you pull a vacuum drops the temperature inside the container.
A video:
Cooling Fresh Vegetables & Salad Commodities - YouTube

Aaron Z
 
   / AC question
  • Thread Starter
#25  
This thread has morphed into a interesting discussion on refrigeration in general. I will not pull my tractor apart until the (hopefully correct) parts arrive and will let you all know what happens.

I have seen numerous places where a particular type of cubical looking type of expansion valve are called block valves, referring to their block-like shape. All along I was thinking of a block valve as a valve that "blocks" flow. No wonder the Koreans have trouble at times translating:).

I also see a lot of misconceptions about the dangers of refrigerants. Everyone seems to imagine and concentrate on the extreme and unlikely consequences of using various refrigerants. Ammonia is actually fairly safe to be around. It is used in commonly used in food processing freeze tunnels with no intermediary coolant. The coils used to cool or freeze the product are full of anhydrous ammonia. Even in the rare cases where it leaks, it really doesn't poison the food product (the food would likely be regulated to animal feed only because of the likelihood of minute amounts of a very pungent aqua ammonia being trapped within the food). Of course in extreme situations ammonia can be dangerous, even deadly, but so can any other refrigerant (including water). The simplest common sense precautions and practices minimize the risks with most any refrigerant. The main reason ammonia isn't be used in automobiles or homes is because of it's extreme odor, not because it is so deadly or hazardous. Propane is a fairly safe refrigerant too. I think all of you who use an outdoor grill are exposed to far greater "dangers" from propane than you would be with a propane refrigeration system. Not many people seem to freak out about using a grill. R12 was banned because of it's environmental impact on the ozone layer, not because it proposed a threat to the user. Varied other refrigerants present minimal risks if you use common sense. People saying you can't use ammonia or propane in a home refrigeration system because of the high chances that you might die in the middle of the night if they had a leak is preposterous. There may be other valid reasons we don't use them, but its not because of that.
 
   / AC question #26  
I don't know if this helps, but when I took the top cover off of my cab, there were some A/C components under that in the rear of the roof. Sorry if this is more misleading than helpful.
 
   / AC question #27  
Cougsfan, since your tractor doesn't have the receiver-dryer called out the the pdf diagram attached, the lower of the two "block valves" must be a strainer and, presumably, a dryer. The filter is always just upstream of the TXV because the TXV has the smallest opening in the system. The upper of the two "block valves" is just a bulkhead fitting. Ironically, it looks from the diagram that the TXV they use is a block valve. Those two items they're calling out as "block valves" can't be what they are because the whole idea of a block valve is that there's a control rod passing between the vapor side (the bigger tube on top in your photo) and liquid side. Those two components only share a bracket.
 

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   / AC question
  • Thread Starter
#28  
You might be right about those bulkhead fittings they call a block valve being a screen, Bernard. They look to be too complicated to be a simple line connector. Claggstractor mentioned the receiver/dryer might be above the ceiling next to the TXV and evaporator, Right after they made my tractor, they made a modification that made the 4720ch's rather low ceiling much higher (A much needed improvement). Maybe they did that by moving the receiver/dryer from the roof area to the front of the tractor like all the diagrams show. It has to be somewhere, and that sounds like a good explanation. When I pull the ceiling I will find out.
 
   / AC question
  • Thread Starter
#29  
The plot thickens....... I got the expansion valve and dryer/receiver from Branson. So I pulled the roof off my tractor to see what I could find. I do not have a dryer/receiver anywhere!!!! The books show one in front of the condenser. There isn't one. You can closely follow ever inch on the line out of the condenser up to the expansion valve (exept where it goes up through the cab frame tubing to the roof area, where it is too tight for the dryer/receiver), and there just isn't one! We looked at the places it shouldn't be. There still isn't one. That may be hard to believe, but that is indeed the case. I have a call into Branson and can hopefully get an explanation of how that could be.

I did get the correct expansion valve, so we changed it. (they coat the expansion valve with a sticky, gooey black plastic wrap which makes an easy job miserable) While we had the valve out, we disconnected the lines into an out of the compressor. We blew air through the condenser, evaporator and every single line looking for line restrictions. There were none. We put the system back together and pulled a vacuum for a couple hours (It holds a vacuum fine). We charged the system. It came up to the correct pressures (22 psi on the suction, 210 psi on the high side). The expansion valve got cold on one side and hot on the other, cool air was coming out of the ducts, just like you would expect.
But after 5 minutes of running, the pressures started rising. 300+ on the high side, 35 to 40 psi on the low side. The air out of the ducts stopped being cold and the expansion valve temperatures lost its temperature differential. The high pressure line out of the compressor got very very hot. Shut it down and let it set for a half hour and cool down.
Started it up again.... Same thing.
We decided to pull the evaporator apart to see if it was plugged on the air side. (Not an easy job!) The was some dirt on the fin inlets. We blew it off and put it back together and tried it again. I also re-cleaned he condenser for the umpteenth time (it was quite clean). No change in how things worked.
It appears to me the system is loosing flow through the evaporator somehow.
One thing I thought of is maybe there is some moisture in the system, and if there is, it would accumulate at the coldest point (The discharge of the expansion valve/ inlet of the evaporator area). Possibly that moisture is freezing into ice after ity runs a while, blocking the freon flow (??) I do know that evaporating moisture out of a refrigeration system is a temperature/pressure/ time relationship. Moisture vaporizes easier at higher temperatures and lower pressures, and it takes time for that to happen. In ammonia systems we held a vacuum for 24 hrs to fully purge the system of moisture. I am holding it at a vacuum overnight now and recharge it in the morning to see if it helps, but to be honest, I don't thing it will.

I can see how a system could "work" without a dryer receiver, but it seems like it would be a very troublesome system. A I understand it, its purpose is twofold 1) remove and hold any moisture in the system and 2) serve as an accumulator for extra freon needed as the system changes temperature states. I still can't believe one was never installed.

That brings up another point. According to the book, my system should hold 2.87 lb of freon. It holds more like half that, probably because there is no dryer receiver. I have charged it several times now and that's all it takes!

It has also occurred to me that I may have some sort of problem on the controls side, but as I think through it, I don't think so.

Another thing that worries me is that we lose a tad bit of oil every time we take the system down, I don't see any way of verifying there is too little or too much oil in the system.

Anybody have better ideas of what to do next.
 
   / AC question #30  
Amazingly frustrating. A few questions:
1. What year is your 4720ch?
2. Did you figure out what the two "block valves" are? The ones in the photo you posted.
3. Can you upload a photo of the receiver-dryer and the expansion valve?
4. Can you upload the diagrams you mentioned?
 
 
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