Actual cost of firewood

[2ndhalf]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is where situations when someone is living in a very inefficient house due to the age of the house, the way it was built etc. When those folks don't have the money to make updates to the efficiency (i.e. Windows, insulation etc.) A wood stove they buy used off CL using the existing chimney makes for pretty cheap heat.

Those people don't have thousands to put into updates and or the outlay of a Geothermal or even just a good efficient heating system. That was us when I was a kid and many from the county I just moved from. I drive through Morrow County often on my way to work and it is amazing the plumes of smoke coming out of fireplace chimney's.

When this situation is the case and there is wood to be cut these folks won't do anything else but burn wood. They don't give a rip about smog, environment return on investment; they are just trying to survive the months bills and put food on the table. Plenty of folks out there in that situation.

 

[Oaktree]

Do you have a thread on your geothermal install? I'd like to hear more about the details.

I'd be interested as well. When you say "geothermal" are you referring to tapping a hot spring or just 1000' of black plastic pipe buried below the frost line? If the latter, how does it work? I get it that below a certain depth the soil temperature is relatively constant year round, but I also read that that temperature is in the mid-ish 50s...how do these systems get comfortable living temperatures from that (I'm talking heat, not cooling)?

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is where situations when someone is living in a very inefficient house due to the age of the house, the way it was built etc. When those folks don't have the money to make updates to the efficiency (i.e. Windows, insulation etc.) A wood stove they buy used off CL using the existing chimney makes for pretty cheap heat.

I think a lot of it is just the independence of it all. Fuel oil, pellets, propane, etc. are all manufactured products subject to price spikes and shortages. Obviously, for someone in one of the prairie states wood isn't option, but here in the northeast where trees are plentiful anyone who puts in the effort can find wood at a reasonable price, or even free for the taking.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Geothermal uses a heat pump cycle with more efficient ground temperature differences than an outdoor air unit. Proper name is ground source heat pump.
Other than that, they work the same. Plenty of diagrams on the web.

 

[2ndhalf]

Geothermal uses a heat pump cycle with more efficient ground temperature differences than an outdoor air unit. Proper name is ground source heat pump.
Other than that, they work the same. Plenty of diagrams on the web.

And as I understand it there are various implementations of GeoT. Some put your coils in your well and some underground or even in a pond if you have one I think I remember hearing. Not speaking from intelligence just from what I have heard.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

And as I understand it there are various implementations of GeoT. Some put your coils in your well and some underground or even in a pond if you have one I think I remember hearing. Not speaking from intelligence just from what I have heard.

But they all work exactly the same, with minor variations in efficiency. Coils in a large pond, or a pump and dump from a well are the most efficient of the types you mentioned. I used to be an IGSHPA certified installer.

 

[DieselnHooters]

But they all work exactly the same, with minor variations in efficiency. Coils in a large pond, or a pump and dump from a well are the most efficient of the types you mentioned. I used to be an IGSHPA certified installer.

If living in town on your average lot (no pond or well) I hear they can run in the 20k range for a full set up, is that true?

 

[buckeyefarmer]

If living in town on your average lot (no pond or well) I hear they can run in the 20k range for a full set up, is that true?

Thats true, i got quotes before deciding to install my own. Prices may have come down now with a lot more people doing installs. I took the money i would have paid someone else, and bought this.



My slinkies are 65' long, 3' wide, per ton. I put in 2 units, 3 ton and 2 ton.

 

[2ndhalf]

Thats true, i got quotes before deciding to install my own. Prices may have come down now with a lot more people doing installs. I took the money i would have paid someone else, and bought this.

View attachment 535565

My slinkies are 65' long, 3' wide, per ton. I put in 2 units, 3 ton and 2 ton.

View attachment 535566

Hmmmmmm .. you all got me thinking... my furnace is getting mighty long in the tooth (installed 1998). I am going to have to research this some more. I hate being dependent upon propane after what happend a few years back with their prices going over $4 a gallon.

When I built my previous house, also in 1998, I got an estimate for GeoT and it was over $11k I think vs. a furnace and heatpump for $7k. I was pretty maxed out on my housing budget so went with the $7k. Are the installed prices anywere near that today?

I could have a geothermal with a wood stove or propane heater backup. I will never be completely without propane since my wife will not give up her gas stove and we have a gas fireplace.

 

[majorwager]

Someone stated if the fuel cost to harvest the firewood is $5, then that is the actual cost of the firewood yield. There is no concept of accounting 101
As you use your tractor and tools and wear out your equipment, in the form of machine hours, there will never be a time where replacment or overhaul becomes necessary based upon the firewood processing activities. The entire concept of depreciation does not exist. I could continue but what would be the point?

 

[2ndhalf]

Someone stated if the fuel cost to harvest the firewood is $5, then that is the actual cost of the firewood yield. There is no concept of accounting 101
As you use your tractor and tools and wear out your equipment, in the form of machine hours, there will never be a time where replacment or overhaul becomes necessary based upon the firewood processing activities. The entire concept of depreciation does not exist. I could continue but what would be the point?

Yep, you have to count that all in.. and if you count that you have to count the health benefits of being out in nature doing something you enjoy and getting some physical exercise; keeping you trim and fit. As someone already mentioned if it helps keep you off the couch it is all good. Dr. bills are no joke!

 

[majorwager]

Second half,
Thanks for the input, if only there was a line for sarcasm on a balance sheet.

 

[dodge man]

I値l add my geo thermal was knocking on the door of $20,000 installed, maybe a little less. The tax benifits made it more like $12,000 though. Our electricity is about 0.12 per kw hr but the geo is on a separate meter and is more like 0.08 a kw. When it痴 running, it uses about 1200 to 1300 Watts, or a little less than a blow dryer.

 

[4570Man]

How hard would it be to convert an existing ac/heat pump system to geothermal? It seems like you could remove the electric fan from the air exchanger and put the rest of the unit in a water tank that’s preferably below ground. Then bury an adequate amount of tubing that circulates the water in the tank through the tubing. The previous air exchanger should have enough copper tubing to exchange heat with the water. And water might not be be the best fluid but it’s good enough for the sake of discussion.

 

[2ndhalf]

Second half,
Thanks for the input, if only there was a line for sarcasm on a balance sheet.

Ha ha... all too true... there are a lot of things that balance sheets have no lines for. If you read through this thread you will see that for many they do not care.

Though I was actually serious in that I know a few older men, probably many on this site, cutting wood into their 70s; they are getting around very well. I happen to believe that they can do that, not inspite of cutting wood, but because of cutting wood.

 

[dodge man]

Almost impossible to convert a heat pump to geothermal. It’s kind of hard to explain but geo is similar to a heat pump but instead of the coils being exposed to the outside air they are exposed to the water that is run over them. I’ve read it’s a tube inside a larger tube. Picture a straw inside a larger pipe that I assume is several feet long. I think the Freon is inside the smaller pipe and the water in the larger pipe. The equipment all looks different than a heat pump.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

How hard would it be to convert an existing ac/heat pump system to geothermal? It seems like you could remove the electric fan from the air exchanger and put the rest of the unit in a water tank that’s preferably below ground. Then bury an adequate amount of tubing that circulates the water in the tank through the tubing. The previous air exchanger should have enough copper tubing to exchange heat with the water. And water might not be be the best fluid but it’s good enough for the sake of discussion.

Not practical, would need a large body of water. I think it would freeze up.

Even though geo lines are underground, the ground temp around the loop gets colder as you extract heat from the ground. After a long cold spell, the water in the loop can get down to freezing. You need antifreeze in the loop. Heat pump refrigerant works on a temperature and volume difference.

There are DX geo units, along your thought, that have an outdoor unit and bury copper refrigerent lines in the ground. I looked at an installation once. I didn't like the concept.

 

[aczlan]

I see that too. One house with an old dirty wood stove can stink of a whole valley! On the flip side, modern stoves burn very clean. I can't see or smell smoke from my chimney when burning properly seasoned wood. The EPA has never required people to update their stoves. But at one point there was some sort of tax benefit for doing so.

IMO, if you have a stinky wood stove, you aren't burning good well seasoned wood. You can have a campfire that is pretty much smoke free, or one that will make a huge pillar of smoke, it all depends on what you are burning in it.

Aaron Z

 

[majorwager]

Second half
An intricate part of the dicussion deals with folks who do not care. When I used firewood, I also ignored the cost. It is a homeowner's right. You just know that after spending 20 or 30+ thousand on equipment, you must be now saving money. Yes, of course I'd have a tractor anyway, so engine hours dedicated to firewood are simply free! However, disagree that a seasonal activity results in year around fitness. The opposite is likely true. Inactivity in winter and spring, coupled with sudden strenuous activity in summer, is likely to produce physical stress , strain or worse. Another point is that many forum participants seem focused upon reducing the physical aspects. Many seek remedies to transfer more work to their tractor attachments and self lifting splitters. Waiting for a post from someone that asks how to make the task more physically demanding? Ditch the saw in favor of axe. Leave FEL off tractor, forget splitter, sledge and wedge is preferable. Choose wheelbarrow over bucket. Sure, even with tools, work is involved. But selling it as the same as routine and balanced, consistant exercise is a stretch, and stretch exercises are different! The solitude of woods work and communing with nature is healthy, even fun, enjoyable, just not most recommended form of exercise.

 

[4570Man]

I keep hearing that ridiculous number of in excess of $20k in firewood equipment. How in the heck do you get to that number? Does anyone really buy a tractor with its sole use being for firewood? I could buy enough equipment to cut enough firewood for my use for about $1000 dollars. People on this forum tend to have a hard time with the concept that when you buy something it’s value doesn’t instantly drop to zero especially if you bought it used.

 

[2ndhalf]

Second half
An intricate part of the dicussion deals with folks who do not care. When I used firewood, I also ignored the cost. It is a homeowner's right. You just know that after spending 20 or 30+ thousand on equipment, you must be now saving money. Yes, of course I'd have a tractor anyway, so engine hours dedicated to firewood are simply free! However, disagree that a seasonal activity results in year around fitness. The opposite is likely true. Inactivity in winter and spring, coupled with sudden strenuous activity in summer, is likely to produce physical stress , strain or worse. Another point is that many forum participants seem focused upon reducing the physical aspects. Many seek remedies to transfer more work to their tractor attachments and self lifting splitters. Waiting for a post from someone that asks how to make the task more physically demanding? Ditch the saw in favor of axe. Leave FEL off tractor, forget splitter, sledge and wedge is preferable. Choose wheelbarrow over bucket. Sure, even with tools, work is involved. But selling it as the same as routine and balanced, consistant exercise is a stretch, and stretch exercises are different! The solitude of woods work and communing with nature is healthy, even fun, enjoyable, just not most recommended form of exercise.

I'm not going to venture to assume the extent to which you have cut, split and burned wood. I guess I'm speaking from the perspective of the old timer who has bought his saws from yard sales and repaired them, bought an 8n for $2000 in 1989 used it for almost 30 years on a regular basis and just sold it for $2600. Built a splitter from an I-beam he got from work and an old wisconsin engine in 1978 someone gave him and we still use it to this day; it is the only thing I've asked for when my dad dies and he said it is a done deal. So, I'm going to guess that my dad has less than $4000 in all the wood cutting equipment he has ever owned since I was a kid and started helping him in 1978. I forgot to mention we sold wood for many years so I'm going to guess he is probably close to 0 on your balance sheet for costs. Saving; that is on the sheet too I'm going to guess in his drafty house he moved into in 1983 he probably saves $700 a year on heat averaged out over the years. He has been burning since I was old enough to remember. So don't assume everyone goes out and drops $30k on equipment for starters.

Everyone comes on a thread with different perspective; burning firewood to many isn't a chore as much as it is a lifestyle. Everyone looks for an easier, better and faster way to do their job. This doesn't make the task effortless and cutting, splitting and burning wood will never be effortless; it still gets you off the couch and not just seasonaly; we cut about 2/3 of the year when we were selling wood.