Advantages of a gear/synchro over HST?

[Reg]

I do believe the HST is safer and more convenient. It's safer because it's easier for a mistake to get you into trouble with gear. My gear is a shutttle shift. Let's say you're moving dirt a good distance, and then pushing over a steep embankment. You move the dirt in a high gear until you get close to the embankment edge. Then you shift to a slower gear for safety. You might even switch ranges from high to low rather than change gears. When finished you then shift the range back to high and prepare to go get another load, but you forget to put the shuttle in forward! When you let out the clutch over the embankment you go. One might say, yeah if you're that dumb you shouldn't be driving a tractor. Well when you are operating a gear shifter, range selector, shuttle lever, clutch, joystick, and and possibly even a 3PH lever, it's easy to forget one or the other. This doesn't happen with HST because you always have infinite speed control from your foot. No fooling with all that other stuff. Now you could press on the reverse pedal when you meant to press on the forward (or visa versa), but that is less likely. In fact, I can't recall ever doing that on my HST.

Another example: You're loading mulch into the bed of your pickup. Your feet are wet from dew or rain or whatever. As you ease up to the truck with your gear-powered load, you clutch to stop but your foot slips off the clutch and you slam into the side of your pickup. Won't happen with HST.

Absolute BS.
Wet boot soles don't slip off clutch pedals any more than they slip from reverse to forward hydro pedals.
ANYONE pushing over a steep embankment had better be in a "no mistakes today" mood, regardless of the equipment's transmission type.
How close to the edge do you suppose anyone would go ?
Personally I would suspect an edge of being likely to crumble, I would hang the bucket over but keep the front wheels back as far as possible.
Any "operator error" causing the tractor to inch forwards would be caught in plenty of time, i.e. I would NOT be revving high and dumping the clutch in the highest gear.
It WOULD BE a small number of inches of wrong forward motion, though SO unlikely to happen.

BTW, embankment edges aren't to be trusted.
What you think you KNOW to be firm, compacted base could slide away as a result of something as simple as a recent rain storm or last winter's freeze/thaw cycles. Any appreciable drop would have me setting up a tether; drawbar grab hook to a 3/8 chain to significant ground tackle.

 

[carpenter383]

When I 1st started looking at CUTS, I was driving around looking for one with a true clutchless Shuttle like My Case 580, they do not exist.

The power train is like this:

Engine > Torque Converter > Shuttle > 4sp gearbox

Problem with this is no way to get the 3PH PTO back to the rear.

What about Kubota's glide shift trans.?

 

[kenstrac]

Big B,
Look at like this - If a machine is pulling a plow across a field for up to a mile in a straight line, gear is simple and hard to hurt, therefore the big farm rigs are gear.

If a machine is constantly starting stopping, twisting turning, inching, pushing, etc - hydro is the way to go, that is why all the track loaders (big and small) are hydro.

If I was plowing with my CUT, gear would have been an option.
But since my wife and kids are using it around our 20 acre wooded lot, hydro was the only option.

As far as a hydro creeping up on you while you are off it, they know never to get off a running tractor.

Slack

This plow thing keeps coming up most of the people here from what I gather bought a loader NOT a tractor I had 7 tractors and only 1 had a loader if I wanted to do loader work I used the Trojan or the JD backhoe as far as farm work When I cut I spent 90% of the time standing up looking into my next row to see if anything was there ( trash, parts of broken limbs,turkeys that are nesting,etc) so as not to swallow them up in the MC.
While baling I sit on the fender sideways and watch the baler and thrower position,at times I have dropped the tractor into the lowest range bailing in the windrow gotten off the tractor and adjusted the bale box checked twine etc.
I bought tractors not loaders I would not have been able to do all the work I did with HST.
Another reason was that I knew my tractors and I felt more comfortable with a gear drive .
YA go ahead and report me to the safety police but when your alone and you have to get the hay in you do what you gotta do!

BTW there is no better feeling after a long hot day in the field than going down the road in the highest gear diesel humming away standing up and taking in all the air (and not having to hold that HST pedal down)

 

[IslandTractor]

BTW there is no better feeling after a long hot day in the field than going down the road in the highest gear diesel humming away standing up and taking in all the air (and not having to hold that HST pedal down)

Just set the cruise control on the HST tractor.

 

[Gittyup]

Absolute BS.
Wet boot soles don't slip off clutch pedals any more than they slip from reverse to forward hydro pedals.
ANYONE pushing over a steep embankment had better be in a "no mistakes today" mood, regardless of the equipment's transmission type.
How close to the edge do you suppose anyone would go ?
Personally I would suspect an edge of being likely to crumble, I would hang the bucket over but keep the front wheels back as far as possible.
Any "operator error" causing the tractor to inch forwards would be caught in plenty of time, i.e. I would NOT be revving high and dumping the clutch in the highest gear.
It WOULD BE a small number of inches of wrong forward motion, though SO unlikely to happen.

BTW, embankment edges aren't to be trusted.
What you think you KNOW to be firm, compacted base could slide away as a result of something as simple as a recent rain storm or last winter's freeze/thaw cycles. Any appreciable drop would have me setting up a tether; drawbar grab hook to a 3/8 chain to significant ground tackle.

Well, I've forgotten many a time. Lunged forward when meant to go back. Lunged backwards when meant to go forward. Not to the point of going over because I pretty safety conscious. When you've lived it, it is far from BS. I have over 850 hours on HST and well over a thousand on gear machines.

And yes my foot has slipped of the clutch a time or two as well with the tractor doing the appropriate lung/nonstop. I suspect that I am far from alone here too. Foot slipping off of HST forward pedal and landing on reverse pedal (or visa versa) and causing a sudden and rapid unintended direction change? Absolutely impossible on my HST. On mine, if one's foot does slip off, the tractor just stops. Wouldn't ever hit the other pedal; couldn't if you tried, in neither direction.

Different configurations may be more prone to this. Even so, a forward moving HST isn't going to instantly change directions before you could react. It is also a big difference between slipping from a forward moving MOTION to a reverse MOTION compared to a forward going MOTION to an intended STOP. On an HST, would you hit your truck under such circumstances or go over an embankment in FRONT of your tractor, if you suddenly went in reverse? I won't stoop to giving this kind of reasoning a disparaging characterization. How many hours of HST experience give rise to such conclusions?

And yes sometimes you have to get close to the edge to accomplish what you need to, especially when you can't get square to the edge due to slope or restricted space. One tire can and must get really close, especially on these short-reach little CUTS. Else the dumped load won't clear the edge.

My opinion comes form first hand experience on both kinds of machines, and that opinion is that HST is far safer than gear. It's not even close.

 

[radman1]

Big B,
Look at like this - If a machine is pulling a plow across a field for up to a mile in a straight line, gear is simple and hard to hurt, therefore the big farm rigs are gear.

If a machine is constantly starting stopping, twisting turning, inching, pushing, etc - hydro is the way to go, that is why all the track loaders (big and small) are hydro.

If I was plowing with my CUT, gear would have been an option.
But since my wife and kids are using it around our 20 acre wooded lot, hydro was the only option.

As far as a hydro creeping up on you while you are off it, they know never to get off a running tractor.

Slack

I agree with you completely. I have had geared lots of geared tractors. From 2 Kubotas B7100s, Kubota 3710 with glide shift, JD 5300, and multiple other mid sized to large ag tractors up to 245 hp. I have used HSTs in JD 3720 and Case-IH DX29 and Toolcat 5610 and skidsteers. Tasks requiring freqent turning, stop and go, precision slow work, back and forth work, the HST is superior. A gear tractor can do all of that, but will have greater operator fatigue and not as fast as HST. Run a geared tractor with FEL, do some serious dirt digging, and load into a trailer or truck. Now do that for several hours and then use a HST and you will never look back. My JD 5300 clutch was replaced about 1500 hours. Not because I don't know how to use a clutch, or because of heavy tillage, but due to the smaller tasks that required frequent turning, stop and go, slow precision work etc that requires constant clutching.

Geared tractor is more efficient and will use less fuel. However, I am not concerned that I use a 1-2 quarts more fuel in 8 hours compared to same tractor gear drive on a small CUT with a 12 gallon fuel tank. I do care a lot more if I inefficiently waste 20-25 gallons of fuel in my 245 hp geared tractor with a 180 gallon tank.

For those that think a HST doesn't have enough power, get a bigger HST!

 

[patrick_g]

I agree with you completely. I have had geared lots of geared tractors. From 2 Kubotas B7100s, Kubota 3710 with glide shift, JD 5300, and multiple other mid sized to large ag tractors up to 245 hp. I have used HSTs in JD 3720 and Case-IH DX29 and Toolcat 5610 and skidsteers. Tasks requiring freqent turning, stop and go, precision slow work, back and forth work, the HST is superior. A gear tractor can do all of that, but will have greater operator fatigue and not as fast as HST. Run a geared tractor with FEL, do some serious dirt digging, and load into a trailer or truck. Now do that for several hours and then use a HST and you will never look back. My JD 5300 clutch was replaced about 1500 hours. Not because I don't know how to use a clutch, or because of heavy tillage, but due to the smaller tasks that required frequent turning, stop and go, slow precision work etc that requires constant clutching.

Geared tractor is more efficient and will use less fuel. However, I am not concerned that I use a 1-2 quarts more fuel in 8 hours compared to same tractor gear drive on a small CUT with a 12 gallon fuel tank. I do care a lot more if I inefficiently waste 20-25 gallons of fuel in my 245 hp geared tractor with a 180 gallon tank.

For those that think a HST doesn't have enough power, get a bigger HST!

Very well said Radman1

What we have here is often similar to the arguments over HIFI equipment. Most of the opinionated but unexperienced commentators are spouting conjecture, quoting other unknowledgeable sources, quoting from manufacturer's spec sheets, and so forth AND NOT talking from experience.

But the XYZ tweeter can deliver 120dB at 22,500 Hz so it is better than your unit that only goes to 19,500 at 3 dB down. Of course the irony is the spec quoter can't hear any sound at all above 16,500 Hz and that is in his GOOD ear.

If you are tone deaf and can't carry a tune in a bucket jump into the discussion with all the info from the makers, lean especially hard on the quality of timber, richness of tone, immediacy of acoustic experience and other ill defined attributes.

So far we have had one man with honestly and integrity tell us why he was soured on HST ( he unfortunately got a lemon of a tractor) and that could do it for any of us. Much of the rest of the discussion is tantamount to the cause c駘鐫re that started the war of the Lilliputians (correct end of the boiled egg to crack into first, the big end or the small end.)

Tis...Taint...tis...taint

We should be able to get a consensus that there is a reason for all the power transmission styles being commonly sold. All have their comparative advantages and disadvantages in certain sort of tasks versus their cost to buy and maintain. There is nothing wrong with saving a buck in trade for a loss in ease of use (in some tasks.) There is nothing wrong with spending more and getting more versatility and ease of use. If I have to assemble a metal bld and have to drive thousands of sheet metal screws I want a cordless driver not a conventional screw driver even though a good screw driver is available for less than $5 (and will get the job done) and a good cordless is over $100. Hanging drywall I want an adjustable automatic drywall screwgun, preferably with belt feed and cordless (my Senco works like a dream.) You can use hammer and nails or a conventional screw driver and save a lot of initial cost, maint, expensive ammo, etc BUT I want the faster easier automatic depth setting tool. You may get by for less initial $, maint, a few % of fuel and on and on BUT in many of the tasks I have to do I get more done for my $ of investment than I could with gears. Even if it were not so I would want the ease of use, precision handling, etc.

I am also a pilot. I am not lisc for jet engines or other than centerline thrust. I enjoy what I do but I don't kid myself or try to spoof anyone else about the cost of a jet, jet maint, etc and down play the speed, hauling capacity, etc. I don't try to pretend the Wright flyer is the highest and greatest expression of aeronautical design ever to be revealed so far in the history of flight. I will never get to fly a Raptor (FA-22) but I will also never try to sell a sour grapes story about how it is inferior.

If I didn't need super maneuverability much of the time and needed to save a few bucks I would consider other than HST. I may pull a disk for hours, or a brush hog, or a box blade but it is not typically in wide open spaces where maneuverability is not an issue. I often find myself in a tight turn much of the time. I also move a lot of dirt and gravel with my FEL. I load into my dump trailer. I load round bales from field onto trailer and from trailer to barn (stacking bales three rows high) and barn to bale ring for the cattle to eat. HST makes this much much easier. I do not claim it is impossible to handle hay with a geared tractor or to do any of my other tasks, lots of folks do most of this routinely. I do claim I do it faster, better, and with less operator fatigue.

I dig ditches with my FEL. the ditch ends up a little over 2 feet deep, V shaped in cross section, and about 3 ft wide at the top. This suffices for many projects but is no substitute for a trencher/backhoe. I know some good tractor operators who have gear tractors with FEL but I know that none of them can compete with me digging a ditch as described above. (my trencher/backhoe arrived Monday at 5PM)

I also know two different guys with row crop tractors considerably more powerful than my Kubota (39.5 PTO HP) with FEL on them that have broken something trying to do less demanding FEL work than I can routinely accomplish faster and easier with my HST. The row crop 2wd tractor is not designed for the heavy load on the front hubs/axles. Different designs are needed to support different tasks. This is also true with respect to power transmission styles like HST vs all gears.

They say ignorance is bliss and some of us must be deliriously happy to not be saddled with the nightmare of HST, a virtual social disease with little or no known cure. I'm sure you wouldn't want your sister to be married to a HST owner-operator. We are lucky that we mislead HST types are allowed to post here at all.

Pat

 

[greenmule]

Shakespear.

 

[patrick_g]

Shakespear.

And to think I edited out stuff like "much ado about nothing" and "a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing" for fear of missing the audience. Clearly that is not the case, sir as your familiarity with the "Noble Bard" demonstrates

I thought to inject some "Through the Looking Glass" especially Jaberwocky but didn't want to go too far.

Pat

 

[Reg]

This plow thing keeps coming up most of the people here from what I gather bought a loader NOT a tractor I had 7 tractors and only 1 had a loader if I wanted to do loader work I used the Trojan or the JD backhoe as far as farm work When I cut I spent 90% of the time standing up looking into my next row to see if anything was there ( trash, parts of broken limbs,turkeys that are nesting,etc) so as not to swallow them up in the MC.
While baling I sit on the fender sideways and watch the baler and thrower position,at times I have dropped the tractor into the lowest range bailing in the windrow gotten off the tractor and adjusted the bale box checked twine etc.
I bought tractors not loaders I would not have been able to do all the work I did with HST.
Another reason was that I knew my tractors and I felt more comfortable with a gear drive .
YA go ahead and report me to the safety police but when your alone and you have to get the hay in you do what you gotta do!

BTW there is no better feeling after a long hot day in the field than going down the road in the highest gear diesel humming away standing up and taking in all the air (and not having to hold that HST pedal down)

You do bring us back to;
a) That this Forum is primarily about TRACTORS !
Not that we can't touch on hoes, loaders, mowers, fork lifts, excavators, etc.
{Driveway ornaments as status symbols, nostalgia paint schemes, Rim waxing, etc.}

b) The point that THIS topic was started with the question; "Advantages of a gear/synchro over HST?", but it has devolved to obscure arguments about applications in which the HST might have advantages.
Applications which for the most part equipment other than "tractors" would be more suited.

TRACTOR: Look it up.
noun.
trahere (Latin) "to pull"