Advice from Kodiak/Topkick or F650 owners

[workinallthetime]

actually ya know what really sucks about gm and diesel stuff
the sold their stock in isuzu, i got corrected in another post about that and did some research and found that they sold what they owned in isuzu

guess who bought in?
yup toyota

ive said it before the next few years in the diesel industy could get real interesting with all the problems gm ford and dodge are having

dont quote me on this because i dont remember the exact numbers but i once read an article that said gm made the highest amount per unit of any "american" company at 3k pure profit per unit while toyota makes 7k per unit.

seems around here most fleet companies use IH
most independents or small time guys use gm/ford

i also think that out sorcing a motor or anything is not a lack of knowledge or ability but a smart money decision
maybe this will help you understand what im getting at and dont take it the wrong way

a guy builds houses lets say
well he doesnt build houses himself he hires people to do it for him
maybe he does all of the stick work
it doesnt really make sense for him to have every tool to do the plumbing, the electrical, the concrete, the cabnets ect leagally
now if he was an amazing guy he could get all the tools, all the degrees, all the licenses to do it all himself but that would take along time and alot of work but he has been a contractor for years.
so he pays the guys to do what he cant do at that point in his life or buys all of the companies necessary to do the job right and he feels strongly that he did a better job than the guy next door.
when hes done he says i built that house (with a hole lot of help)
kind of the same thing with gm buying what it needs to do a job, your only as good as the people you are around. when it hits the road its a gm truck backed by gm
when the house sells its a joe bob home backed by joe bob.
now IH is the guy who has over the years built their company up as a stand alone unit for whatever reason. does that make them better? maybe in some ways but in others maybe not. they are only as good as the IH people they are around and thats how big their knowledge pool is
gm has a pretty big pool compared to IH. IH has how many different models to try stuff out on? GM has how many models to try stuff out on? over the years ive seen so many things that start out on cadillac and end up on medium duty models when the price comes down for the items. there is alot of stuff on your chevy truck that started out in a caddy then went to your truck then to medium duty.

is one better than the other in different ways each has their plus marks and minus marks.

i didnt build it, i didnt break it, i didnt tell you to buy it so dont blame me when its broke

 

[KICK]

You mean when GM bought Detroit Diesel. GM themselves developed nothing. They simply bought the Detroit Diesel technology and rebadged it as GM. It's that simple. DD engineers started getting their paychecks and orders from GM managers. No or very little GM engineering took place. Doesn't matter because GM sold off DD many years ago. They now rely completely on ISUZU for diesel technology. Why? Because unlike IH, they can't build their own diesel....just like poor ol Ford.

Hope you understand now. Have a great weekend in stillinlimbo, Florida!

at least you finally explained what you meant by your original statement about them being Just auto manufactuers. thank you for clarification.


Detroit Diesels original name is General Motors Diesel, nickname being Jimmy Diesel.


In the 60's their name was changed to Detroit Diesel , some claim from antitrust legislation, others claim because Ford and International didn't like people seeing a GENERAL MOTORS DIESEL installed in Ford and IH and Mack trucks. at that point General Motors changed the name while still owning Detroit Diesel.

GM developed electronic controls for their automobiles in the late 70's and early 80's and applied that sytem to Diesel Engines, the first application was in 1984. know as DDEC. It is still known as DDEC and is on its 5th version

Penske bought Detroit from GM ,introduced the series 50's and 60's, made many improvements and sold that company to Daimler Chrysler a few years ago.

You really shouldn't offer your own version of the history of General Motors (aka Detroit) Diesel if you don't know it.

I have a question related to the history of IH that you might be able to answer? who was Cyrus McCormick? and what did he invent?

 

[KICK]

actually ya know what really sucks about gm and diesel stuff
the sold their stock in isuzu, i got corrected in another post about that and did some research and found that they sold what they owned in isuzu

guess who bought in?
yup toyota

an interesting note is some claim they are all in bed with each other, and in some instances the same people that control and sit on the boards of these corporations also sit on the boards of their competition


Ford, Sterling, Jaguar, Mazda, Nissan all have relationships to each other

GM, Toyota, Isuzu, Susuki, Volvo have a business relationship

daimler Chrysler , Mitsubishi, Benz, Freightliner, Detroit Diesel have a relationship

John Deere supplies motorhome engines which are in what brand chassis?

I don't know why any of us have any brand loyalty, even though we do.

 

[Builder]

It doesn't matter whether you outsource or do everything in-house for construction, as long as the job gets done correctly. In the construction industry, it's done both ways.

But the "debate" here is that the individaul who's trying to say that GM or Ford have more knowledge than IH. In fact, here's his exact quote:

"its safe to assume either one of those corporations knows more about manufacturing and engineering just about anything mechanical than International or Freightliner ever did."

When I build a house, I hire a plumber to do the plumbing. I don't know more about plumbing than he does.
Just like when Ford builds a truck, they hire IH to build them engines and other major components. Ford doesn't know more about trucks than IH does and never will.

Yet IH is fully capable of building an entire truck with absolutely no input from Ford.

It works a similar way when GM uses Isuzu diesel technology & parts to build their diesel engines, or uses Isuzu tilt cab trucks and rebadges them as GMC or Chevy trucks. GM doesn't have the engineering or production skills to do it themselves in house , so they buy the trucks or diesels from Isuzu.

Yet Isuzu is fully capable of building the entire truck themselves with no input from GM.

In terms of medium or large trucks, IH can do what Ford cannot. In terms of medium or tilt cab trucks or diesel engines, Isuzu can do what GM cannot.

Show me how Ford can build these vehicles, they must be able to since they "knows more about manufacturing and engineering just about anything mechanical than International", yet they don't. I wonder why? The gentleman says they know more than Ih, so they certainly must be able to do it or do it better.
International : Military and Government LLC

Can GM engineers build this truck?

International Trucks New Interior - Virtual Tour

I'm not trying to knock Ford or GM for that matter. I own copies of each and like them. All I'm trying to say is that the original statement I'm disputing "its safe to assume either one of those corporations knows more about manufacturing and engineering just about anything mechanical than International or Freightliner ever did.", is just flat out false and silly.

 

[Builder]

I did not originally specify IH due to my personal lack of information. And I included Ford F650's because I thought they weren't really Fords (motor, trans, etc.) What I am really looking for is a $50,000 truck that is reliable, can haul 6 people comfortably, tow a 24ft 10,000lb trailer (hopefully be a 40ft trailer in the future), and most of all....BE RELIABLE. I appreciate the IH and all other information. The price point is an issue. If I can't get the right truck for $50k, I am forced to go up to another price point, which puts IH in the running. Missing a race and loosing a championship because my 6.0 Ford left me on the side of the road twice is unacceptable and cost me enough money to pay for the upgrade to medium class trucks. More unacceptable is Ford's response to my problem, or lack thereof. They don't care about customers and the 6.0 is junk. My father has been a tried and true Ford fan forever. He has only purchase Ford's his entire life. After my experience and asking him to drive 1,000 miles to get me, he will never buy another Ford. Too bad Ford representatives don't read this website. They could learn a lot.

Does IH build a crew cab with a "truck bed" style truck? I haven't searched their sites yet.

Yes, they do. In 4x2, IH builds the "RXT". In 4x4, they build the "CXT".
International Truck and Engine Corporation

The problem is, these are not crewcab pickups. They are true medium duty trucks. You'll pay 50K or more for a fairly well appointed crewcab pickup today, so it would only make sense that a true M/D crewcab would cost more. If you consider IH, look for DT466 power. The IH 6.4L will be less problematic than the Ford version because it's more conservatively rated and has a less complex turbocharger.

IMO, you'd be better off with a 4200-4400 crewcab with a nicely matched hauler body over a F-650. Look for an '07 without the DPF system. You should be able to find a clean, used one and save a bundle of money. Probably be more reliable than a new one with a DPF, too.

 

[KICK]

You mean when GM bought Detroit Diesel. GM themselves developed nothing. They simply bought the Detroit Diesel technology and rebadged it as GM. It's that simple. DD engineers started getting their paychecks and orders from GM managers. No or very little GM engineering took place. Doesn't matter because GM sold off DD many years ago. They now rely completely on ISUZU for diesel technology. Why? Because unlike IH, they can't build their own diesel....just like poor ol Ford.

Hope you understand now. Have a great weekend in stillinlimbo, Florida!

let me fix your previous post:: pay particular attention to the quote above and your explanation of how GM developed nothing and my pasting of this little article on the history of DD engines in the US Army.::::::::::::::as follows

Detroit Diesel
11/01/2002


November 2002
Detroit Diesel

Detroit Diesel Corporation is a wholly owned subsidiary of DaimlerChrysler with its history going back to 1938 as a division of General Motors. We were one of AUSA’s earliest sustaining members. Our primary mission is to provide a quality product that satisfies our customers’ needs and expectations the first time, every time.

The U.S. Army heavy truck fleet relies on Detroit Diesel power for over 80% of its vehicles. The HEMTT, Palletized Loading System, Heavy Equipment Transporter and M915 family all feature Detroit Diesels. They saw extensive service in Operation Desert Storm and demonstrated excellent performance and reliability.
The workhorse of the Army’s light combat vehicle fleet, the M113, is powered by Detroit Diesel; as are the self-propelled howitzers and FAASVs. Over half of the Army’s armored vehicles have Detroit Diesel engines. Our engines have seen service in every major conflict back to World War II.

Detroit Diesels have also been the engine of choice for many other Army applications such as construction equipment, aircraft ground support and boats. One of our earliest applications was the WWII landing craft. Today, we are promoting complete propulsion systems for the Army Theatre Support Vessel. We have extensive experience in high-speed vessels to move people and equipment.

 

[KICK]

GM doesn't have the engineering or production skills to do it themselves in house , so they buy the trucks or diesels from Isuzu.

QUOTE]

so what your saying is a company with 15,000 employees( IH) has more production capacity and engineering prowess than a company with 250,000 employees?

No wonder GM is going under. LOL.

 

[KICK]

Times changed. Ford & GM's major stockholders decided building bigger trucks or diesel engines wasn't in their future anymore. They dumped all those engineers & designers decades ago.

stockholders don't make those kind of decisions. boards of directors do.

 

[Builder]

stockholders don't make those kind of decisions. boards of directors do.

Ummm, no.
If you think majority shareholders in a company don't influence what does/doesn't get done in todays American corporate enviroment, you failed Econ 101.

 

[Builder]

GM doesn't have the engineering or production skills to do it themselves in house , so they buy the trucks or diesels from Isuzu.

QUOTE]

so what your saying is a company with 15,000 employees( IH) has more production capacity and engineering prowess than a company with 250,000 employees?

No wonder GM is going under. LOL.

No, again, you're putting words in my mouth and you really don't understand the jist of the conversation. I never said ".....a company with 15,000 employees( IH) has more production capacity and engineering prowess than a company with 250,000 employees?" It ain't about overall production.
What I'm saying is that right now, and for at least a decades up to this point, IH builds more medium & heavy trucks more medium & heavy diesels and has more medium/heavy truck & diesel engineers and production facilities than GM or Ford.

Decades ago, GM and Ford got rid of all their larger truck engineers and converted their assembly lines into light truck/SUV production.

GMC got out of heavy trucks after all that "GMC/Volvo/White" crap about 15 yrs ago. Along with that went all the heavy truck engineers and the assembly lines. They were junk even when they were producing them.

Ever hear of the Ford "Louisville" truck plant in KY? That was once the home of the "L" series heavy Ford truck line that Ford dumped in 1997 in favor of pickup truck assembly lines. Another "brilliant" move by Ford's then CEO, Jaques Nassar. Great job, Ford. Shut down the very reason people identified Ford with trucks in the first place.

Those GM & Ford engineers and assembly lines were hushed, permanently.

Of course, IH continues to churn out medium duty trucks and medium duty diesel engines in world record numbers, heavy trucks in great numbers and is now building 11 & 13L diesel engines in Huntsville.

I guess that doesn't matter to you, though. You seem to have convinced yourself that GM or Ford is still building trucks the same size as IH and diesel engines like IH.

Maybe you still have a 1992 calander hanging on your wall????