Advice from Kodiak/Topkick or F650 owners

[Builder]

sensitive aren't we.

If you re read what you posted I believe you said that GM and Ford were "just auto manufacturers".

while GM/Ford are mere shadows of their fromer selves between the two companies they have forgotten how to build more things then IH ever attempted.

Show me some proof, other than your opinion. I gave you models & diesel engines, you give me opinions.

I'll put IH's truck manufacturing ability over Ford's or GM's anyday of the week. Ford doesn't build ONE diesel truck engine and their biggest truck is 33,000 GVWR. GM builds ONE diesel engine (one in colaboration with Isuzu) and the biggest truck they build is a 8500 series tandem at about 60K.

IH builds & sells more M/D & H/D trucks than Ford & GM combined and builds like 6 different engines.
GM & Ford got rid of almost all their heavy truck & equipment engineers and Ford actually couldn't build a truck bigger than an F-550 without the help of IH and relies on IH for diesel engines. That's pathetic. GM needs help from Isuzu with MD diesels, but has an edge in heavy trucks compared to Ford.

Either of them are nothing compared to IH in terms of building big trucks or big diesels. Heck, I'd pick Volvo, Isuzu, Hino, Mack, Paccar, or Damlier (since they own Western Star & freightliner) over ford or Gm for truck building, too.

Times changed. Ford & GM's major stockholders decided building bigger trucks or diesel engines wasn't in their future anymore. They dumped all those engineers & designers decades ago.

 

[workinallthetime]

i wonder if times will change for the big 3? i dont know anything about ford so i wont go there, seems to me that when gm sold detroit they got out of the "big" truck business. it seems toyota has made some sort of impact in the 1/2 ton department since the toy and the gm 1/2 ton pull 10,500 and i saw an add today for ford claiming 11,000 lb out of a 1/2 ton. acording to what you guys say on here dodge is getting into the medium duty game also.
this thread is about kodiac/topkick and f650's so im trying to stay on topic here. i think if i was in the market for something of that size right now id have to go with the gm (even if i wasnt a gm guy)
#1 a proven design not something new like the dodge will be
#2 service and parts for the units available in most areas due to gm's dealer network
#3 configurations and aftermarket equipment are endless
#4 2 year unlimited milage warranty bumper to bumper.
just what i could think of off the top of my head (with my gm hat off)
#5 the state of ford with international that might be an issue down the road.

L39 has some great info on the IH, to me i dont like them because they feel like 1985 inside but thats just me im sure they are rock solid units but you were asking about specific trucks. i have a customer that has a 4500 and he has over 120,000 invested in this thing, he pulls rock crawlers all over the country with it. he is actually went from a 3500 to a 4500 and is going back to the 3500 because he does not like the ride of the 4500.
good luck

 

[Builder]

i wonder if times will change for the big 3? i dont know anything about ford so i wont go there, seems to me that when gm sold detroit they got out of the "big" truck business. it seems toyota has made some sort of impact in the 1/2 ton department since the toy and the gm 1/2 ton pull 10,500 and i saw an add today for ford claiming 11,000 lb out of a 1/2 ton. acording to what you guys say on here dodge is getting into the medium duty game also.
this thread is about kodiac/topkick and f650's so im trying to stay on topic here. i think if i was in the market for something of that size right now id have to go with the gm (even if i wasnt a gm guy)
#1 a proven design not something new like the dodge will be
#2 service and parts for the units available in most areas due to gm's dealer network
#3 configurations and aftermarket equipment are endless
#4 2 year unlimited milage warranty bumper to bumper.
just what i could think of off the top of my head (with my gm hat off)
#5 the state of ford with international that might be an issue down the road.

L39 has some great info on the IH, to me i dont like them because they feel like 1985 inside but thats just me im sure they are rock solid units but you were asking about specific trucks. i have a customer that has a 4500 and he has over 120,000 invested in this thing, he pulls rock crawlers all over the country with it. he is actually went from a 3500 to a 4500 and is going back to the 3500 because he does not like the ride of the 4500.
good luck

The "new" (been out for like 4 years) IH 4200/4300/4400 looks very modern inside compared to the previous model http://69.20.127.42/StaticFiles/internationalTrucks/pictures/4000_walkaround.pdf

1. The advantage IH has over anyone else in medium duties is they have the biggest parts & service network in the world. That's a huge advantage over the competitiors when you're out on the road a long way from home.

2. IH also offers the best medium duty diesel engines, built in-house, not by another company that may have issues with training on repairs or parts. An IH medium is built in an IH factory in the USA with an IH diesel.

3. I'll take a DT466/570 over anything CAT, MB, DMAX or Cummins ac offer in similar displacements.

IH also builds their 4x4's right on the IH assembly line instead of shipping them out to another company. They even offer factory installed dumps and other beds. that way you can have it done in house and warranteed by IH. You don't have to worry about some small time outfit covering repairs to your body later.

That's why IH outsells Ford & GM combined in MD trucks.

 

[workinallthetime]

The "new" (been out for like 4 years) IH 4200/4300/4400 looks very modern inside compared to the previous model http://69.20.127.42/StaticFiles/internationalTrucks/pictures/4000_walkaround.pdf

1. The advantage IH has over anyone else in medium duties is they have the biggest parts & service network in the world. That's a huge advantage over the competitiors when you're out on the road a long way from home.

hmmm i know where at least 6 gm dealers are and 5 ford dealers in this town but i know of only one IH dealer. we work on a bunch of the gas burning IH here because the dealer is to backed up and the fleet companies are not to happy with them. but thats just here maybe things are different where you are

2. IH also offers the best medium duty diesel engines, built in-house, not by another company that may have issues with training on repairs or parts. An IH medium is built in an IH factory in the USA with an IH diesel.

ahh made in the usa good point, i love the jap writing on the rocker covers on the d-max, i swear it says "hahahah you stupid big man our little hands get in all the places you cant"

3. I'll take a DT466/570 over anything CAT, MB, DMAX or Cummins ac offer in similar displacements.

and you did thats obvious from your pics, a proud papa to i must say

IH also builds their 4x4's right on the IH assembly line instead of shipping them out to another company. They even offer factory installed dumps and other beds. that way you can have it done in house and warranteed by IH. You don't have to worry about some small time outfit covering repairs to your body later.

ya i hate working on some of the upfitted stuff, that is a definate plus to have the actual company that makes the truck also upfitting it. we have so many repairs that the upfitter has to eat because they drilled through something or forgot to hook something up. my favorite is when they hook up the second fuel tank wrong or dont hook it up at all.

That's why IH outsells Ford & GM combined in MD trucks.

sure price isnt also a factor?

good points man ....
i guess the ones i saw were pretty old by the time they got to me. the new ones look pretty sharp

 

[QRTRHRS]

sensitive aren't we.

If you re read what you posted I believe you said that GM and Ford were "just auto manufacturers".

while GM/Ford are mere shadows of their fromer selves between the two companies they have forgotten how to build more things then IH ever attempted.

First off, I am not really a fan of GM/Ford or IH though I have owned products from all three. I never owned anything from Freightliner though I have driven many of their products. Personally, I prefer Volvo over Freightliner.

Anyway, I would really like to know just what it was that Ford/GM have done that is so stellar?

I guess the Duramax is okay but GM did more to hurt the small diesel market than to help it. Read the current threads in this forum about Ford. Neither make a class 8 any more.

 

[KICK]

Show me some proof, other than your opinion. I gave you models & diesel engines, you give me opinions.
.

you made a comment that they were " just auto makers".

that is true now, wasn't true all that many years ago.

Ford Trucks all the way up to Big Rigs weren't all that uncommon. saying ford never built very many diesel engines would be more true than saying they were just an auto man. Ford Tractors, New Holland farm machinery come to mind. Ford made a bunch of other stuff over the years, doesn't anymore. Seems Ford made all kinds of consumer products over the years, if anybody is old enough to remember Philco. also aerospace stuff.

GM, same story. I can think of GM dominating the Bus world for many years, just about every single bus in the USA had a Detroit in it , not that many years ago and GM made the majority of the buses used in city service up until the early 80's when they got out of the market. I mentioned Detroit Diesel, they made engines that ranged in size from 3-53's all the way up to the 16 cylinder 149 series. they also built engines for the locomotives they manufactured, engine called a series 567( 567 cubic inches per cylinder) for their Electro Motive division. those engines were used in USN submarines if anybody remembers. of course GMC manufactured their own trucks all the way up to the class 8, last one I remember were the Astro's and the General models. the marine industry ran Detroits for years, until the EPA killed off the 2 stroke market. Frigidaire... GM probably provided the AC that international put in their trucks. I seen plenty of IH transtars in the past that had Detroits in them. I could probably go on and on about all the different stuff the General used to make.

since then they have restructured, grown smaller or lost their edge but the blanket statement that they " are just auto manufacturers " is untrue.

both of them made everything from machine guns to Airplanes in the past.

OTOH, I can remember when International just about failed, even changed their name to Navistar in order to distance theirself from the wonderful reputation International had earned. Ford never made a big deal about their Deisel engines being made by Navistar, could be no name recognition. Not like Dodge which markets the Cummins name quite succesfully, when considering the fact that Daimler Chrysler owns Detroit Diesel , Mercedes Benz all of who market their own engines in size ranges from 40 hp to 2000. they cant get away from selling a competitors engine in a truck they manufacture, for fear of losing market share... thats funny.

I remember when International made pickups, they were pretty mcuh a joke compared to the other offerings. time goes by though.

times changed, GM and Ford are in the position International was once in, and they are downsizing and trying to find their core business, whatever it might be.

but don't throw out that blanket statement that they are just auto manufacturers, as if that is proof of something.

Henry Ford made Bill Gates loook like a common merchant in an Arab Bazaar. Old SOB owned everything and made everything hisself. He had Iron Ore mines in Minnesota that shipped the Ore on the Frieighters he owned, Coal mines in Pa that shipped the stuff on the railroads he owned, rubber plantations in Brazil to provide the rubber for the tires he manufactured and it just goes on and on. made his own glass for the cars and trucks his company built. that story is more interesting than Cyrus Mcormick and the farm equipment where IH got their start.

I'd be willing to say the General and Ford know more about building machinery than IH ever did but they lost their way, in fact I would say they are in the same position IH was in 35 years ago.

lest we forget.

just auto manufacturers.

more like aerospace, auto, truck, marine, locomotive, farm machinery and consumer products.

some of the names live on in other way. Sterling was formerly Ford. Delphi was formerly Delco. Detroit Diesel is now a Daimler chrylser company. allsion is Allison, never heard of a IH transmission in any road vehicle but I could be wrong. friggin Rolls Royce used to use GM Hydramatics if it matters to you.

Yep, International sells more Medium Duty engines than anybody else, that must make them the best and most competent company in the world. Nobody eles could possibly know anything...

disregard the above post..... you are correct, GM and Ford don't know jack about anything but cars.

 

[Builder]

"I remember when International made pickups, they were pretty mcuh a joke compared to the other offerings. time goes by though."

Then your memory must be real bad. They were not a "joke". They were some of the toughest pickups ever made. MUCH tougher than the offerings from Ford or GM at the time. My father owned IH pickups and they put chevy & ford trucks to shame in toughness.

" lest we forget"

I didn't forget, but they stopped building that equipment many decades ago. I didn't forget that i ised to be able to bench press 405, but now I can only bench 315....I didn't "forget" that I used to bench 405, but i can't do it anymore, either.

What you're forgetting is that GM BOUGHT detroit Diesel, they didn't create it. GM BOUGHT Allison Transmission, they didn't create it. Ford BOUGHT new Holland, they didn't create it.

See what i'm getting at here? GM & Ford would simply buy what they couldn't build themselves. From what I read, IH built almost everything in-house. Trucks designed by in-house engineers. Engines designed IN-HOUSE, not like Ford or GM who just go out and buy-out another company. Buying things is just about money, not brains or talent.

George Steinbrenner BUYS every baseball player he wants. Does that make him the worlds greatest baseball owner? No, just the richest & most popular one. Ever heard the expression "more money than brains", my friend? That's what we have here with GM & Ford. That's why both compainies are teetering on bankruptcy. They bought huge divisions to make for them what they were incapable of making themselves. Now after all that, they've sold nearly all of them off.

Wanna talk about war machines? IH built 10's of thousands of half tracks and troop transport trucks. Wanna talk BIG tractors? Well, IH led the indsutry for about 70 years in that department until the late 80's Case/IH merger.

So I stand by my premise: From an in-house manufacturing and engineering standpoint of trucks & engines, IH has built & designed FAR more than GM or Ford and still does today. Ford or GM couldn't build the IH4800 that sits in my garage today without having to send it off to a subcontractor to have it upfitted with 4 wheel drive. They don't have the capability to do it themselves, but IH does

 

[workinallthetime]

ok ok L39 we know you are a die hard IH fan, lol

maybe gm and ford in the good ole days were going by the old saying
"your only as good as the people you are surrounded by"

Im pretty sure the 4500 and 5500 series truck come off the line with 4 wheel drive as an option, but i could be wrong. when they are ordered from gm 4x4 is a production code and gm powertrain componants have the software built into them. ive seen many aftermarket 4x4 conversions and they are all hacked into the gm stuff, heck the 4x4 add ons are done right here in tulsa.
i also belive that gm and ford are in trouble due to a huge mess of things, everything from supporting workers who no longer work for them, influx of jap trucks and cars, gas prices effecting truck sales, ect...

bottom line is GM may not be the highest selling med duty truck company but they still are the largest auto maker in the world. they may not have the highest sales in all the markets but they are still #1. its great that IH is an american company and they are on top of the med. duty market that gm and ford also sell units in.
but again IH was not one of the units the poster of this thread wanted to know about

happy IHing man

 

[Builder]

ok ok L39 we know you are a die hard IH fan, lol

maybe gm and ford in the good ole days were going by the old saying
"your only as good as the people you are surrounded by"

Im pretty sure the 4500 and 5500 series truck come off the line with 4 wheel drive as an option, but i could be wrong. when they are ordered from gm 4x4 is a production code and gm powertrain componants have the software built into them. ive seen many aftermarket 4x4 conversions and they are all hacked into the gm stuff, heck the 4x4 add ons are done right here in tulsa.
i also belive that gm and ford are in trouble due to a huge mess of things, everything from supporting workers who no longer work for them, influx of jap trucks and cars, gas prices effecting truck sales, ect...

bottom line is GM may not be the highest selling med duty truck company but they still are the largest auto maker in the world. they may not have the highest sales in all the markets but they are still #1. its great that IH is an american company and they are on top of the med. duty market that gm and ford also sell units in.
but again IH was not one of the units the poster of this thread wanted to know about

happy IHing man

yes, the 4500/5500 do come off the line as 4x4's, but the 6500/7500/8500 have to sent out to a subcontractor to be converted to a place like Tulsa Truck, Monroe, Marmon herrington, etc. IH does it in house.

And yes, you're right GM & Ford are in financial trouble for making a whole host of bad decisions over the years. I only brought that up because "mr GM & Ford" brought up the fact that IH was in financial trouble about 20+ years ago.

I'm actually a fan of all the American car/truck companies, or what's left of them. LOL

I have GMC, Ford & IH all at my shop.

 

[TwinCreek]

I did not originally specify IH due to my personal lack of information. And I included Ford F650's because I thought they weren't really Fords (motor, trans, etc.) What I am really looking for is a $50,000 truck that is reliable, can haul 6 people comfortably, tow a 24ft 10,000lb trailer (hopefully be a 40ft trailer in the future), and most of all....BE RELIABLE. I appreciate the IH and all other information. The price point is an issue. If I can't get the right truck for $50k, I am forced to go up to another price point, which puts IH in the running. Missing a race and loosing a championship because my 6.0 Ford left me on the side of the road twice is unacceptable and cost me enough money to pay for the upgrade to medium class trucks. More unacceptable is Ford's response to my problem, or lack thereof. They don't care about customers and the 6.0 is junk. My father has been a tried and true Ford fan forever. He has only purchase Ford's his entire life. After my experience and asking him to drive 1,000 miles to get me, he will never buy another Ford. Too bad Ford representatives don't read this website. They could learn a lot.

Does IH build a crew cab with a "truck bed" style truck? I haven't searched their sites yet.