Advice on water pulse Repair?

[devildog1]

Good morning all. I want to repair an issue that has bugged me for quite a while with my water pulse. I get to hate when I'm in shower and pump cycles the pressure drops for a few seconds and then a steady stream comes back until pressure switch comes back on and goes through that cycle until I'm done showering.Now I'm not a master plumber but have changed quite a few water pumps for myself and friends or neighbors, both submersible and jet pumps so I'm a bit familiar with the operation of the system. Question now" If I install a second water tank before or after my original installed tank will the larger capacity of water in tanks help resolve this water pulse? I can't replace existing water tank for lager one because of tight quarters where it's located,( under stairway in crawl space). I think existing tank is only about 15 gallons. Thanks for your help TBN'ers.
DevilDog

 

[muddstopper]

Most of the water tanks contain a air bladder that is inflated with pressureized air. These Bladders will sooner or later leak out the air pressure and is usually what causes the water pressure to surge. If you look at you tank you should see a valve stem, like on a car tire. You can use a regular tire guage to check to see if the tank does have pressure or proper pressure. If no or low pressure, you can blow it up using a air compressor or airtank to its proper rateing. If this cures your pulsating water problem, keep a check on it and if it starts pulsating again, then you will have to replace the tank with a new one. I have seen new tanks last for only a year or two and some last for 20 or more years.

 

[BeezFun]

Question now" If I install a second water tank before or after my original installed tank will the larger capacity of water in tanks help resolve this water pulse? I can't replace existing water tank for lager one because of tight quarters where it's located,( under stairway in crawl space). I think existing tank is only about 15 gallons. Thanks for your help TBN'ers.
DevilDog

I agree with mudstoppers diagnosis, your tank is probably waterlogged, but if the tank is that small and you have to replace it, I'd move to a new location and buy a larger tank. Even if it holds a charge after you pump it up I'd still add a second tank for more capacity. The less your pump cycles the longer it will last.

 

[Clint S]

Remember to check PSI with the water turned off and the pressure relieved from the system. Should be 2 psi less than the cut in pressure your pump is set at

 

[devildog1]

Remember to check PSI with the water turned off and the pressure relieved from the system. Should be 2 psi less than the cut in pressure your pump is set at[/QUOTE
Thanks for responding but the pressure was done and was OK as pressure switch is 20-40 and pressure in tank is about 16 pounds. Maybe I should have made my question a bit clearer? This water pulse has always been there from the very beginning but I never did anything to try and correct it, but now I want to. Pump pressure, switch pressure, and tank pressure is all OK. Question do any of the master plumbers out there think if I install a a 25 gal water tank in line before my existing 15 gallon tank this will either fix or make the issue a bit un- noticeable? My thoughts are if I have a larger supply of water in the two tanks pressure switch won't cycle enough for me to be bothered by the pulse, am I thinking correctly?
DevilDog

 

[BeezFun]

My thoughts are if I have a larger supply of water in the two tanks pressure switch won't cycle enough for me to be bothered by the pulse, am I thinking correctly?

No, you're not thinking about it correctly. No matter what sized tank you have you should never "feel" the pump cycling on and off. The only reason you're feeling it is because there's no air in the tank to provide continuous pressure while the pump cycles on and off. So you effectively don't have a pressure tank, you're running directly off the pump, which is why you feel it cycling. You can prove this to yourself by properly charging the tank you have, which requires isolating the tank, draining pressure and water, then recharging to the proper pressure based on your pump setting. Since you say it's always been this way, you either bought the house with a water logged tank, or the tank wasn't installed correctly.

 

[devildog1]

No, you're not thinking about it correctly. No matter what sized tank you have you should never "feel" the pump cycling on and off. The only reason you're feeling it is because there's no air in the tank to provide continuous pressure while the pump cycles on and off. So you effectively don't have a pressure tank, you're running directly off the pump, which is why you feel it cycling. You can prove this to yourself by properly charging the tank you have, which requires isolating the tank, draining pressure and water, then recharging to the proper pressure based on your pump setting. Since you say it's always been this way, you either bought the house with a water logged tank, or the tank wasn't installed correctly.

Well thank you for the straight answer, thats what I was looking for. So now I'll replace the water tank with a new one, hopefully I can fit a little larger capacity one in its place. Just a point, home was built new, but it seems like this has been a long time issue. Maybe it's like hearing or vision , goes so slowly you don't notice it until you notice it. Does that make sense?
DevilDog

 

[Carl_NH]

Personally I think your pressure is a bit low - I would do 30/50 with the tank set at 28 PSI air charge presuming its a bladder tank.

Depends a little bit on the pump too - if its a submersible constant cycling is not good for the motor and same applies to a jet pump to (above ground), also, if you have a high water level your pump is not working hard and fillign up the tank quickly.

So I would first increase the tank pressure and cut in/out pressure then if you still have a noticeable on/of then look at installing a larger tank is series with the existing one. They make a short and stout tank that holds a lot too so you have options too.

 

[Clint S]

So IF the tank was charged properly you really should not notice. Before changing it out I would drain and recheck pressure. Tanks can lose a few PSI a year. If you check and it is low it would confirm it is bad. The other question is how long between pump cycles when the water is running.

 

[Carl_NH]

Here is a short tank 30" high 22" dia. 12 gal drawdown that should work well Amtrol Well-X-Trol 34 Gallon Water System Pressure Tank - WX-205 - WX-205

 

[EE_Bota]

I like the idea of increasing the pressure somewhat since that is pretty low, but that won't effect the cycling. But an additional tank will help, and adding one of those valves that reduces cycling is a good approach too. I have no particular expertise with residential systems other than maintaining our family system growing up, and my own in adulthood.

Constant Pressure Systems - Columns - National Driller

 

[devildog1]

Thanks guys for the info. The water tank has to be the problem as I just in September of this year changed my pump and wire , torque boots pressure switch, guide rope and everything else that with it. Well is 170 " deep. Flint & Wallens SS 1/2 hp was replaced with same model. Pump lasted just about 14 1/2 years. When I actually thought about it over the 40 years I've lived in house everything that involves the pump has been changed 3 or 4 times except the water tank! That's original, got to be 39 or 40 years old! Wow the light came on!Thanks again, sometimes it pays to talk things out.I've never changed a water tank before but I'll post when I'm done.
DevilDog.

 

[EE_Bota]

Thanks guys for the info. The water tank has to be the problem as I just in September of this year changed my pump and wire , torque boots pressure switch, guide rope and everything else that with it. Well is 170 " deep. Flint & Wallens SS 1/2 hp was replaced with same model. Pump lasted just about 14 1/2 years. When I actually thought about it over the 40 years I've lived in house everything that involves the pump has been changed 3 or 4 times except the water tank! That's original, got to be 39 or 40 years old! Wow the light came on!Thanks again, sometimes it pays to talk things out.I've never changed a water tank before but I'll post when I'm done.
DevilDog.

Hold on...if your tank is not leaking, even if it has a bladder, and the bladder is ruptured, if you make your air pressure right, the tank should perform as well as the new one, provided a broken bladder is not obstructing the water exit.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea to replace it, particularly with a larger one...I just don't want you to be disappointed.

 

[Clint S]

I had to service the one in my grandmothers house 1x a month before I replaced it a few years ago. She said it was 40 plus years old too.

 

[BeezFun]

So now I'll replace the water tank with a new one, hopefully I can fit a little larger capacity one in its place. Just a point, home was built new, but it seems like this has been a long time issue. Maybe it's like hearing or vision , goes so slowly you don't notice it until you notice it. Does that make sense?
DevilDog

If it were me I'd do the thing that costs no money first to confirm the fix. I'd drain down your tank and recharge it, and make sure that fixes your problem. If that solves your problem you can add a second tank with more capacity and monitor your small tank for a month or two to see if it leaks. If it does you can junk it. All tanks lose pressure over time, or they can develop a leak. So you're right this could have developed slowly.

 

[muddstopper]

Hold on...if your tank is not leaking, even if it has a bladder, and the bladder is ruptured, if you make your air pressure right, the tank should perform as well as the new one, provided a broken bladder is not obstructing the water exit.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea to replace it, particularly with a larger one...I just don't want you to be disappointed.

If the bladder is ruptured, it will fill up with water over time. Simply adding more air to it wont work because the air will mix with the water. Adding just air might work for a very short time, but it wont fix the problem. If the bladder is ruptured a simple test is to use your pressure guage to check the pressure with the tank full of water and under pressure. If water comes out of the valve stem, the bladder is ruptured and the tank needs to be replaced.

If the air tank is good, bladder not ruptured, and is holding proper pressure, its time to look in the well itself. The well is 40+years old. Bored Wells do tend to fillup with silt over time. If this is the case, the pump could be sitting in silt. You didnt say why you had to replace the pump, but when it was pulled out, was the old one covered in mud? If the pump is sitting in silt or mud, this could have been what caused the pump to go out in the first place and would certainly lead to premature failure of the new one. I just went thru this myself with a well that was drilled in 1984. My short term fix was to just raise the pump level a few more feet to get it out of the silt. The long term solution is to have the well company sit back up on the well and redrill it, which I will have done when the funds become available. My water was surging to and I wish it had of been as simple as a new bladder tank.

 

[devildog1]

. You didnt say why you had to replace the pump, but when it was pulled out, was the old one covered in mud? If the pump is sitting in silt or mud, this could have been what caused the pump to go out in the first place and would certainly lead to premature failure of the new one. I just went thru this myself with a well that was drilled in 1984. My short term fix was to just raise the pump level a few more feet to get it out of the silt. The long term solution is to have the well company sit back up on the well and redrill it, which I will have done when the funds become available. My water was surging to and I wish it had of been as simple as a new bladder tank.[/QUOTE]
Pump was 14 1/2 years old, from what I've been told that's about the life span for submersible pumps.
Pump is not in silt as lots of feet of casing and ledge rock, pump is about 25 ' up and has never pumped silt in the 40 years here. With ledge rock i do get iron deposits over time on pump and inlet screen. That's what I found when I pulled and replaced pump three times in 40 years. First pump that was installed by driller was a Red Jacket with what looked like epoxy red paint over some kind of bad metal didn't last but a few years. That's why I went to Flint & Wallins, all stainless steel construction. I Don't believe 14 1/2 years is bad for a pump that sits in water all the time with 4 people in house including two daughters and washing machine that never seem to stop. Well guys hears my plan for tomorrow, drain water tank and check or pressurizer tank to 18lbs. Then see if that make a difference. Thanks once again guys for the ideas and feed back
DevilDog

 

[EE_Bota]

If the bladder is ruptured, it will fill up with water over time. Simply adding more air to it wont work because the air will mix with the water. Adding just air might work for a very short time, but it wont fix the problem. If the bladder is ruptured a simple test is to use your pressure guage to check the pressure with the tank full of water and under pressure. If water comes out of the valve stem, the bladder is ruptured and the tank needs to be replaced.

Absolutely, I meant it as a troubleshooting measure for his pulsing not a permanent solution. And it is a fantastic troubleshooting measure too, since if that bladder is busted, so long as he leaves a spigot open while adding the air, he likely will never achieve his charge pressure as the air will leak right out.

I agree that if the bladder is ruptured and has been ruptured for a very long time, then water MAY come out the air valve, but that can take quite a long time.

Honestly, opening a spigot, letting all the water escape, and then trying to achieve proper air fill pressure is the very best tank diagnostic I know of for a "captive air" tank.

Also, some tanks don't have a heavily sloped bottom, and in cases of under fill (on the air side) the water side can accumulate silt. The test I mentioned above will "express" some of that silt into the exit opening, and I will sometimes leave a spigot open and start and stop the pump a few times to allow the bladder to express any accumulated silt into the exit opening. I usually then change my whole house filters.

 

[devildog1]

Final report in on WellXTrol WX202 water tank. I went in crawl space and shut off pump and drained water in system, left facet open and checked pressure in tank. Was a bit surprised as it showed 32lbs! Checked it with 2 new gages and a new Digital ,all showed 32lbs. Now I bled off pressure to 18lbs as I set my pressure switch at 20 to 40 psi. Turned back on the pump and went to kitchen sink and proceeded to fill up a pail or two of water. I did not even notice when of if pump cycled, smooth flow, no noticeable pulse, Yes !!! Thanks to all friends at TBN for their input and suggestions. For one thing I didn't have to buy a new water tank and all I can say is WellXTrol must make a good product to still have a working tank and air batter after 40 years.
DevilDog

 

[EE_Bota]

Final report in on WellXTrol WX202 water tank. I went in crawl space and shut off pump and drained water in system, left facet open and checked pressure in tank. Was a bit surprised as it showed 32lbs! Checked it with 2 new gages and a new Digital ,all showed 32lbs. Now I bled off pressure to 18lbs as I set my pressure switch at 20 to 40 psi. Turned back on the pump and went to kitchen sink and proceeded to fill up a pail or two of water. I did not even notice when of if pump cycled, smooth flow, no noticeable pulse, Yes !!! Thanks to all friends at TBN for their input and suggestions. For one thing I didn't have to buy a new water tank and all I can say is WellXTrol must make a good product to still have a working tank and air batter after 40 years.
DevilDog

Excellent! And you are not out of pocket any money either, so that there is a success story!
In that state, your bladder was actually flopping down to the very bottom and a split second later, your pump was turning on.