Advice request on Dealer situation

MikePA · Aug 3, 2004

As you will note, choice of words at TBN is very important. 
So are the choice of Instant Faces. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

As I am fond of saying, words have meaning. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

confront - To come face to face with, especially with defiance or hostility
ask - To put a question to

The dealer's reaction, i.e., "...he was upset and told me..." might be appropriate if he were 'confronted', but not if he were just 'asked'.

Henro · Aug 3, 2004

Well, since the water getting in the fuel is your fault, it won't and shouldn't be covered under warranty. 

Well...YES and NO!!!

It should not be covered by warranty, that is the YES...

But REALLY, should be just accept that if we buy fuel from someone, that it should contain a bunch of water???

I say NO! But I don't have a solution either...

In the beginning I used to let my fuel containers sit for a day or so, then since water rests on the bottom I would take the last quart or so and put it into a glass jar and check for water.

The on-road place I first went to failed the test. The off-road place I later found passed time after time, so well that I don't check their fuel anymore...

Bottom line is that I EXPECT my local supplier to sell me fuel for fuel prices, and he does...

My question would be what can we do if he doesn't?

Bird · Aug 3, 2004

IF the water came with the fuel; i.e., didn't get water in it after it was bought, I would think the service station it came from would be paying the bill. I know when I was a teenager, and not too long after my dad bought a service station (leased the building), we put water in a number of customers tanks along with their gasoline. We found that the old underground tanks had apparently rusted through and water was getting into them. So we had new tanks installed, and our insurance company paid for the all the service to the vehicles that got water. Of course that was 1957, so I guess some things may have changed. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

MadReferee · Aug 3, 2004

( If the water came with the fuel; i.e., didn't get water in it after it was bought, I would think the service station it came from would be paying the bill. )

I owned a service station for almost 3 years in the late 90's. I carried Citgo fuels. All fuel tanks, gasoline and diesel, contain some amount of water. Up to 6" or so in some cases. My tanks were brand new (as per federal regs) and all had water monitors and contained anywhere from 2" to 6" of water.

I never had a complaint regarding water or performance for that matter. However if I ever would have, it would have taken a lawyer and a lawsuit for me to pay out for someone's engine problems. Once you left the station there was no guarantee that someone else put water or whatever in your tank. I presume that it would be most difficult to prove that the station was at fault. Pump at your own risk.

I had no specific insurance to cover such occurrences and I do not know if Citgo did either. My contract with the Citgo distributor held me harmless for any such occurrences as long as I kept the water monitors working.

Your supplier's mileage may vary.

BIGUN · Aug 3, 2004

( But REALLY, should be just accept that if we buy fuel from someone, that it should contain a bunch of water???

Bottom line is that I EXPECT my local supplier to sell me fuel for fuel prices, and he does...

My question would be what can we do if he doesn't? )

Everyone should expect fuel for fuel prices and nothing less or more (water) in this case. If people continue to purchase fuel from this place knowing it has water in it without complaining or taking their business elsewhere then this place has a very successful racket going, selling water for diesel prices! Any fuel dealer could unwittingly be selling water in their fuel but after being notified corrective action without delay is in order. Complaints, losing business, and being presented the bills for water related repairs to customers engines should get some attention and corrective measures or else they should go out of business.

To20Chris · Aug 3, 2004

Hmm...I'll have to check next time I go to the store, but a gallon of water may well cost as much as a gallon of diesel! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif So maybe they charge extra for the water? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bird · Aug 3, 2004

( I owned a service station for almost 3 years in the late 90's. )

That was about 40 years after we had our service station and there was no such thing as a water monitor back then, as far as I know. It was a Mobil station and the building was actually owned by the Mobil distributor. And when I say our insurance paid for it, I can't remember for sure whether it was our own insurance or Mobil's insurance, or the insurance the Mobil distributor and owner of the building had. Of course, when it happened, the customers had a problem within a few miles of leaving the station, and when you get 2 or 3 complaints in one day, you start doing some checking, and we found we had a serious problem. We had no doubt where the water came from and the insurance company didn't hesitate to pay. Had it just been one person complaining, I could understand your saying it would take a lawyer and lawsuit, but if you knew it was a result of your problem, I don't think so.

Junkman · Aug 3, 2004

( I owned a service station for almost 3 years in the late 90's. I carried Citgo fuels. All fuel tanks, gasoline and diesel, contain some amount of water. Up to 6" or so in some cases. My tanks were brand new (as per federal regs) and all had water monitors and contained anywhere from 2" to 6" of water. )

Let me preface my remarks with the information that I was once involved in the business of installing underground and above ground storage tanks. True, that was over 25 years ago, but I believe that the same still applies. If there is 2" to 6" of water in the tanks, then there is a problem with the way the fuel is being handled and delivered, the tanks and fills are installed, or some other inordinate happening. If at any time a customer of ours had that much water in a tank, we would go to the facility and pump the water out. We would also do a pressure test to make sure that there were no leaks in the tanks. I know that there are monitors today in the tanks, but that is to detect leaks between the inner and outer shells. Fuels don't contain water, however water is introduced into fuel in the storage facilities by condensation. If a tank is half full, and there is a very hot day and humid day, as the fuel is being pumped out of the tank, that hot humid air is going into the tank. The when this hot humid air hits the cool air located in the tank, the moisture in that air will be released into the fuel and fall to the bottom. In the past, the stations would always "stick" the tank with a paste that would indicate if there was water at the bottom. If they found water, they would have that water removed as soon as possible so the inside of the tank wouldn't rust. Todays fiberglass tanks don't have that problem, but stations still check for water, I am certain. Most tanks have the pick up for the pumps located at the high end of the tank and about 6" - 8" off the bottom. The tanks are installed slightly out of level so the water will all be at one end. The opposite end is where the pick up is located. If 2" to 6" of water in a tank is acceptable today, I find this amazing.

MarkV · Aug 4, 2004

I know I would be upset in Danny’s situation. Receiving a bill 4-5 months after the fact, without an explanation, I would find unacceptable. Do I get a bill next month for the cup of coffee I had last year? Secondly the difference in price for the same service would require an explanation. Could well be something legitimate like, ‘we reduced the bill on the first service because we were so slow in billing’. That I could understand and appreciate, we all make mistakes. Now the dealer jumping on me for asking questions about unusual billings would cross my line. The way I read it Danny wasn’t trying to renegotiate a price after the fact; he was just trying to understand why the same service cost 3x more in one billing and why he was getting bills 4 or 5 months after the service. May just be that the dealer was having a bad day or he just found out he had lost thousands because of bad billing practices in his shop, I don’t care, that’s not my problem. In my business when someone buys something in the price range of a tractor their questions are always valid and require a full explanation. That is just something you buy into in the service industry or you lose your customers like this dealer has.

Personally I don’t think you owe for the first bill because of the billing delays and should have ask for an estimate before either service. I would also probably pay the bills rather than risk any credit problems for the amount involved. I would also include a letter with the payment explaining how his reaction to my questions and billing methods have made me uncomfortable enough to let my tractor needs be handled by others in the future.

MarkV

MadReferee · Aug 4, 2004

2" to 6" of water in the bottom of a 10,000 gallon tank is not uncommon. When I complained to the distributor that I thought the water level was too high I was told not to worry as long as the monitor alarm did not go off. On at least 2 occasions that I can remember I ran out of gas but still had almost 8" of liquid in the bottom of the tank so the pickup was never getting into the water.

Requirements for monitors vary from locality to locality and state to state. Some require more than others. The only one I was required to have was a leak detector.

Very few stations still use sticks to measure the tank volume. Most have electronic sensors in the tanks and computers that will give a printout of the gallons remaining. I had one but it never worked right so I usually used a fuel stick.