Air show collision: B17 and P63

[ArlyA]

Another good video about the poor visibility the P-63 had.

 

[MossRoad]

Very legitimate question. Some probably know the answer already, but I have not yet heard it.

What is more of a concern for me is the differential in speed while flying at the same or similar altitude. To me, that was an obvious factor. If the two planes were traveling at similar speeds I doubt this would have happened.

The speed differential is a known source of problems. It's why most uncontrolled airports have a traffic pattern altitude of 800' or 1,000' above the runway for piston aircraft, and typically 1,500' above the runway for turbine aircraft. The turbine aircraft are operating at faster speeds.

I'll guess that they were flying within 10-20 mph of each other.

It's the angle that it happened at that is deceiving to the eye.

Think about it.

Go out in a parking lot and have someone walk next to you for 50' at the same speed as you. You perceive no difference in speed to the person next to you. Now continue along, but have the person next to you keep walking in a straight line while you turn 90 degrees to that person and keep walking at the same speed. From your vantage point, you're going away from each other at a brisk pace.

Now do that in reverse. You'll quickly come together even though you're walking at the same speed.

I'm guessing that's the visual effect we're seeing in the collision.

 

[MossRoad]

Anyhow, it's all speculation and the professionals will figure out as best they can what happened.

Bottom line is it's a sad loss of life and we should be proud of and thankful for these folks that preserve and demonstrate these historic aircraft.

 

[Sigarms]

It'll probably come down to what it almost always comes down to...

Pilot error.

I came to that conclusion as well, however, using common sense...

If it was a airshow, there has to be some kind of air traffic control. Given the age of the planes up in the air at the same time, I can't help but think there was some kind of communication from the ground, and I can't help but wonder why nothing was communicated to both pilots (from the ground) of their proximity and altitude of each other?

 

[ovrszd]

Bruce

Bruce, once again I thank you for your research and patience to find this video. It confirms what I suspected in the beginning. Sad outcome.....

 

[ovrszd]

If you didn't take time to view Bruce's video, do so. Explains everything in graphic detail. Sad outcome.

 

[Torvy]

Another member on TBN knew the B17 pilot.
Very sad indeed, they had no chance after the collision.

He used to be one of our council members. I didn't know him personally, but there are a lot of commercial pilots living here.

 

[Rockbadchild]

They said the plains weren't supposed to be at the same altitude, unfortunately these plains are not equipped with the so call black box. The investigation will be challenging but will still be interested to see the outcome of it. The only fact at this time is that it is a sad accident.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Both aircraft in blind spots. Collisions like this happen often, typically with small aircraft at uncontrolled fields. Sad

 

[ovrszd]

Both aircraft in blind spots. Collisions like this happen often, typically with small aircraft at uncontrolled fields. Sad

Yep, very sad.

If properly crewed the B17 has complete visibility in all directions by design. But the approaching speed of the fighter would have been hard to react in time to avoid anything. Then add the fact that this was a rehearsed event that they have performed many times. I'm sure the B17 flight plan was flat straight flight so as to minimize confusion.

 

[ovrszd]

Not to distract from this tragedy in anyway, actually to reinforce the meaning of the bomber loss, here's some pics from my Dad's 8th Air Force days during WWII. His wing was mostly B24 Liberators. Sometimes B17s were mixed in but rarely.

 

[ovrszd]

I grew up spending time listening to my Dad and looking thru this book hundreds of times. His stories brought reality to the pictures.

Before every mission the crews gathered for mission briefing. For security reasons this briefing was given just before they suited up and boarded the bombers.

This picture is my most favorite. I cannot look at it today without my imagination going wild. I've studied every man in that picture. I've analyzed their emotions studying their faces. I've always wondered how many made it home. The stories these men could tell...... Salute.

 

[MossRoad]

It's nice to have some things like that, and the stories to go along with them. I have a few items from my father in WWII as well. South Pacific combat engineering battalion.

 

[2manyrocks]

One of the difficulties for the pilots is that they appeared to be trying to line up their aircraft away from the spectators, but close enough for them to see the aircraft which puts both aircraft in a relatively confined space.

Given the age of these aircraft, I wonder when the supply of parts and people who know how to keep them repaired is going to run out.

 

[ovrszd]

It's nice to have some things like that, and the stories to go along with them. I have a few items from my father in WWII as well. South Pacific combat engineering battalion.

As a young kid it was common to sit around the table and listen to Dad tell stories of WWII. I was forever "altered" by it. It all flashes back in my mind every time I see a Soldier in uniform.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

My Uncle was with the 3rd Armored Division during the war, and he was with them when they liberated the slave labor camp at Nordhausen. Anyone who heard his stories would never deny the Holocaust, although he talked about it very little.

 

[ovrszd]

My Uncle was with the 3rd Armored Division during the war, and he was with them when they liberated the slave labor camp at Nordhausen. Anyone who heard his stories would never deny the Holocaust, although he talked about it very little.

I cannot imagine.

 

[ArlyA]

Years ago I was working on a fellows lake cabin and dock etc, etc and when i was done and went inside, I noted a photo of a b-29 on the wall. I asked him about it and he said that he was a pilot of that in the Pacific during the war. I asked him for more details and he eventually told me "We were over japan and got all shot up and knew we couldn't get back so I told the crew to jump and we radioed that position in asking for a patrol boat to get those guys. Me and the co-pilot turned back and skidded to a stop in a field and survived the crash fine, but we seen the public heading our way with tools to make quick work of us two. After bombing them for months, they were not happy with us but the Japanese army showed up just before they did and turned there weapons on the crowd. They saved our lives and sent us to a intern camp for 2 months and the war was over". So I asked if his crew was picked up? and he said "No, the Japanese navy most likely got them, interrogated them and threw them over with weights when done. There navy did that all the time."

Sad but I cherish hearing these stories.

 

[ovrszd]

Years ago I was working on a fellows lake cabin and dock etc, etc and when i was done and went inside, I noted a photo of a b-29 on the wall. I asked him about it and he said that he was a pilot of that in the Pacific during the war. I asked him for more details and he eventually told me "We were over japan and got all shot up and knew we couldn't get back so I told the crew to jump and we radioed that position in asking for a patrol boat to get those guys. Me and the co-pilot turned back and skidded to a stop in a field and survived the crash fine, but we seen the public heading our way with tools to make quick work of us two. After bombing them for months, they were not happy with us but the Japanese army showed up just before they did and turned there weapons on the crowd. They saved our lives and sent us to a intern camp for 2 months and the war was over". So I asked if his crew was picked up? and he said "No, the Japanese navy most likely got them, interrogated them and threw them over with weights when done. There navy did that all the time."

Sad but I cherish hearing these stories.

Thanks for sharing it Arly.

 

[ovrszd]

A must see movie about WWII bombers is Memphis Belle.

If you are reading this thread and haven't saw it you are missing out.